'14 AGM 1SS/1LE Track build [COTW 11/17/14]

[X25]

Originally Posted by Mgizzle

What year C7 you looking for............... buy a Z/28, you deserve one

I actually already got the C7 in CA, but need to send my Camaro first (as a trade-in). It's a '16 Z51 1LT with no options. Here is my car waiting to be picked up:


I almost bought a low mile Z/28 for $43K, but then changed my mind in the last minute I wanted something different this time, which swayed my opinion.

Originally Posted by Firefighter

I'd wait for the C7 Grand Sport to hit. That's the Vette version of a 1LE. It has the looks and a hell of a suspension and brake package and you can make the motor what you want...

Think TT...

That's what I thought as well... until I digged in. Grand sport for C6 used to be a huge step, since it also included dry sump system, and much better brakes besides the wide body. This is not the case for C7. C7 GS does not get Z06 brakes; looks like it's getting SS/1LE's front brakes actually : P GS also comes standard with magna ride, which is an issue. If you buy magna ride and leave the car stock, then it's an excellent system that serves you well both off and on track. However, if you, say, decide to use R-compound tires, then you would run into issues. When you order a car with magna ride, GM substantially reduces the spring rates, which increases the comfort. In return, the shocks are stiffened in track mode, etc., so the overall suspension can stay stiff when needed. This works great if the car is left bone stock, or if you're a car magazine, but if you switch to wider front tires and/or r-compound, the compresion/dampening demanded by the additional traction becomes too much. For this reason, there are actually Z51 MRC owners who switched their softer springs with the springs from Z51 w/ no MRC (FE3). This works better for track with more support from stiffer springs, but the tune of the shocks will be off.

There are a few different alternatives to go, and I opened up discussion about it here:
http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/...rack-duty.html

Long story short, one of the best options seems to be a base C7 with no MRC (FE3). I went this route, and upgraded the suspension to GM's own T1 racing suspension kit, which is actually developed on FE3 suspension! GM even has a racing series (Michelin challenge) based on cars with this suspension; I expect it to work great

Another option is to get C7 GS at base model (no Z07), and then get the DSC module to tune the suspension to your liking. Since the base non-Z07 models need to overcome much softer springs' shortcomings, they actually have a better range, and are essentially better to work with for a track setup (isn't it crazy???). Combined with stiffer springs and tuned MRC, C7 GS could be great! The aftermarket control module sells for $1250. One problem with this approach is that MRC overheats at the track in long sessions. There's an aftermarket alternative with additional reservoir, but it runs for about $6K!

Originally Posted by BaylorCamaro

Before I bought my C7 I considered mag ride, I loved it on my ZL1. Ultimately I opted to go with no mag ride so I can eventually go with LG Coilovers.

X, I'll be interested to see your report on the T1 suspension. I haven't read anyones feedback on it other than one article from (I think) GM Authority.

Side note, neither CorvetteForum nor Corvette7 have a build thread section. I was going to start documenting my build but I guess not

Glad to see you over on those forums, too : ) Yes, I had a similar thinking process (T1 instead of coilovers, but same idea).

Himm, it's a pity, but I might need a build thread regardless. I bought so many parts; so much to test!!!

[X25]

Oh, and I should have noted, it will look like this when I'm done:



APR stage 3 aero, GM's T1 race suspension kit, CCW wheels running on F:275/35/18 R:305/30/19 NT01, Suede Competition seats/steering wheel/shifter, all Z06 cooling goodies, Z06 brakes from Amazon, etc. ordered ALL the parts

[BaylorCamaro]

Originally Posted by X25

I actually already got the C7 in CA, but need to send my Camaro first (as a trade-in). It's a '16 Z51 1LT with no options. Here is my car waiting to be picked up:


I almost bought a low mile Z/28 for $43K, but then changed my mind in the last minute I wanted something different this time, which swayed my opinion.


That's what I thought as well... until I digged in. Grand sport for C6 used to be a huge step, since it also included dry sump system, and much better brakes besides the wide body. This is not the case for C7. C7 GS does not get Z06 brakes; looks like it's getting SS/1LE's front brakes actually : P GS also comes standard with magna ride, which is an issue. If you buy magna ride and leave the car stock, then it's an excellent system that serves you well both off and on track. However, if you, say, decide to use R-compound tires, then you would run into issues. When you order a car with magna ride, GM substantially reduces the spring rates, which increases the comfort. In return, the shocks are stiffened in track mode, etc., so the overall suspension can stay stiff when needed. This works great if the car is left bone stock, or if you're a car magazine, but if you switch to wider front tires and/or r-compound, the compresion/dampening demanded by the additional traction becomes too much. For this reason, there are actually Z51 MRC owners who switched their softer springs with the springs from Z51 w/ no MRC (FE3). This works better for track with more support from stiffer springs, but the tune of the shocks will be off.

There are a few different alternatives to go, and I opened up discussion about it here:
http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/...rack-duty.html

Long story short, one of the best options seems to be a base C7 with no MRC (FE3). I went this route, and upgraded the suspension to GM's own T1 racing suspension kit, which is actually developed on FE3 suspension! GM even has a racing series (Michelin challenge) based on cars with this suspension; I expect it to work great

Another option is to get C7 GS at base model (no Z07), and then get the DSC module to tune the suspension to your liking. Since the base non-Z07 models need to overcome much softer springs' shortcomings, they actually have a better range, and are essentially better to work with for a track setup (isn't it crazy???). Combined with stiffer springs and tuned MRC, C7 GS could be great! The aftermarket control module sells for $1250. One problem with this approach is that MRC overheats at the track in long sessions. There's an aftermarket alternative with additional reservoir, but it runs for about $6K!


Glad to see you over on those forums, too : ) Yes, I had a similar thinking process (T1 instead of coilovers, but same idea).

Himm, it's a pity, but I might need a build thread regardless. I bought so many parts; so much to test!!!

I think you will be much happier with the C7 than the Z/28. You are already going to change the tires and brakes. For Track rats carbon ceramics are a gimic unless you have very deep pockets. So the C7 is by far the better option. Curious why you didn't get a 2LT so you can get the PDR? The telemetry on it is amazing. At first I thought it would be more of a novelty, but it really isn't.

Interesting thing about mag ride, buddy of mine has a 3LT Z51 M7 with mag ride and competes in NASA. He just set a track record at NOLA for TT2 class. Mods are slicks, carbotech pads, and LG sways. So the mag ride seems to do OK for him and he is certainly fast. Anyways I still think the non mag ride route is the way to go for hard core track people.

One last note, you may remember me making a thread in the road course section here about trying to figure out why the back end of my car was so loose. It was the REAR caster. I got it realigned (track alignment) had my rear caster zero'd out and I shaved almost 9 seconds off my lap time, everything else the same.

Maybe you and I should petition the mods on CF to get a build section up lol

[X25]

Originally Posted by BaylorCamaro

I think you will be much happier with the C7 than the Z/28. You are already going to change the tires and brakes. For Track rats carbon ceramics are a gimic unless you have very deep pockets. So the C7 is by far the better option. Curious why you didn't get a 2LT so you can get the PDR? The telemetry on it is amazing. At first I thought it would be more of a novelty, but it really isn't.

Interesting thing about mag ride, buddy of mine has a 3LT Z51 M7 with mag ride and competes in NASA. He just set a track record at NOLA for TT2 class. Mods are slicks, carbotech pads, and LG sways. So the mag ride seems to do OK for him and he is certainly fast. Anyways I still think the non mag ride route is the way to go for hard core track people.

One last note, you may remember me making a thread in the road course section here about the trying to figure out why the back send of my car was so loose. It was the REAR caster. I got it realigned (track alignment) had my rear caster zero'd out and I shaved almost 9 seconds off my lap time, everything else the same.

Maybe you and I should petition the mods on CF to get a build section up lol

Well, your friend is using much stiffer sways, that might be helping him out quite a bit! I don't know the rules, but if that class forces you to keep shocks/springs stock, MRC might then be a better choice.

WOW, that's huge! Do the alignment shops even have equipment to see rear caster? I don't think I ever saw caster readings for the rear on Firestone's alignment screen, or anywhere else.

Here is a video of C7 Z51 with no MRC doing figure-eight during MotorTrend testing:

[BaylorCamaro]

Originally Posted by X25

WOW, that's huge! Do the alignment shops even have equipment to see rear caster? I don't think I ever saw caster readings for the rear on Firestone's alignment screen, or anywhere else.

GM has a specific tool and gauge to adjust REAR caster. The package costs nearly $1,000 and as a result most dealers don't have that tool let alone non dealers. Most places you call and ask will think you're crazy and say that isn't something you can adjust but you most definitely can. I found a dealer by me that had the tool and has used it on a C7 before. Unfortunately the machines still don't read rear caster so it has to be manual measured and adjusted and won't show up on your printout, so you have to take their word that they did it. However mine must have been so far off to make that kind of a difference.

[Firefighter]

Originally Posted by X25

I actually already got the C7 in CA, but need to send my Camaro first (as a trade-in). It's a '16 Z51 1LT with no options. Here is my car waiting to be picked up:


I almost bought a low mile Z/28 for $43K, but then changed my mind in the last minute I wanted something different this time, which swayed my opinion.


That's what I thought as well... until I digged in. Grand sport for C6 used to be a huge step, since it also included dry sump system, and much better brakes besides the wide body. This is not the case for C7. C7 GS does not get Z06 brakes; looks like it's getting SS/1LE's front brakes actually : P GS also comes standard with magna ride, which is an issue. If you buy magna ride and leave the car stock, then it's an excellent system that serves you well both off and on track. However, if you, say, decide to use R-compound tires, then you would run into issues. When you order a car with magna ride, GM substantially reduces the spring rates, which increases the comfort. In return, the shocks are stiffened in track mode, etc., so the overall suspension can stay stiff when needed. This works great if the car is left bone stock, or if you're a car magazine, but if you switch to wider front tires and/or r-compound, the compresion/dampening demanded by the additional traction becomes too much. For this reason, there are actually Z51 MRC owners who switched their softer springs with the springs from Z51 w/ no MRC (FE3). This works better for track with more support from stiffer springs, but the tune of the shocks will be off.

There are a few different alternatives to go, and I opened up discussion about it here:
http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/...rack-duty.html

Long story short, one of the best options seems to be a base C7 with no MRC (FE3). I went this route, and upgraded the suspension to GM's own T1 racing suspension kit, which is actually developed on FE3 suspension! GM even has a racing series (Michelin challenge) based on cars with this suspension; I expect it to work great

Another option is to get C7 GS at base model (no Z07), and then get the DSC module to tune the suspension to your liking. Since the base non-Z07 models need to overcome much softer springs' shortcomings, they actually have a better range, and are essentially better to work with for a track setup (isn't it crazy???). Combined with stiffer springs and tuned MRC, C7 GS could be great! The aftermarket control module sells for $1250. One problem with this approach is that MRC overheats at the track in long sessions. There's an aftermarket alternative with additional reservoir, but it runs for about $6K!


Glad to see you over on those forums, too : ) Yes, I had a similar thinking process (T1 instead of coilovers, but same idea).

Himm, it's a pity, but I might need a build thread regardless. I bought so many parts; so much to test!!!

Well damn... I stand corrected. I honestly thought it was more like the upgrade the C6 GS got. Well you did your research and informed me quite a bit.

In my case I won't be in the Vette market until the C8 comes out. I'll figure out the best option then.

Good luck and I'll keep track of what you end up doing to the Vette. Congrats on the purchase.

[Stormcloak]

Originally Posted by X25

Oh, and I should have noted, it will look like this when I'm done:



APR stage 3 aero, GM's T1 race suspension kit, CCW wheels running on F:275/35/18 R:305/30/19 NT01, Suede Competition seats/steering wheel/shifter, all Z06 cooling goodies, Z06 brakes from Amazon, etc. ordered ALL the parts

I'll admit, I'm envious. That's going to be a great car, you must be pumped! Sad to see you leaving Camaroville though, this thread has been incredibly helpful and informative!

[clarkkent]

Can't wait to follow your C7 progress! In person, also

[X25]

Originally Posted by Stormcloak

I'll admit, I'm envious. That's going to be a great car, you must be pumped! Sad to see you leaving Camaroville though, this thread has been incredibly helpful and informative!

Thank you! Who knows, I can a next gen Camaro 1LE a few years down the road..

I was not thinking about selling my car, but I damaged my front bumper last month while trying the Cup 2s at the track (terrible traction when cold), and even though the damage seemed miniscule, the repair became a lot more involving since they ended up removing everything in front of the car (engine, suspension, etc.) to check on the front frame rails by the wheel arc. Since I see issues (leftover screws, etc.) any time even a simple job is done on my cars by outsiders, I got a bit turned off by the whole process, and ended deciding to replace it. I almost bought a Z/28 in its place, but then the cars would be too similar. I decided to venture into a new platform, instead.

Originally Posted by clarkkent

Can't wait to follow your C7 progress! In person, also

Neither can I. The parts started trickling in already : )

[1LEguy]

Originally Posted by X25

I actually already got the C7 in CA, but need to send my Camaro first (as a trade-in). It's a '16 Z51 1LT with no options.

Awesome. Congratulations! Definitely looking forward to that build thread.

[JusticePete]

A few thoughts...

MRC is self learning and hould adjust to the higher rate springs.


The older one wire MRC systems struggled on track with heat dissipation. The newer two wire systems don't appear to have this issue.

Some race classes don't allow MRC because of the edge they believe it provides over coilovers.

Chris, what were the before and after rear toe reading on your Vette?

[X25]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

A few thoughts...

MRC is self learning and hould adjust to the higher rate springs.


The older one wire MRC systems struggled on track with heat dissipation. The newer two wire systems don't appear to have this issue.

Some race classes don't allow MRC because of the edge they believe it provides over coilovers.

Chris, what were the before and after rear toe reading on your Vette?

There's a long thread about this in CorvetteForum, but magna ride actually does get too hot, and starts getting softer. There's a manufacturer that sells upgrade shocks (controllable by PTM) that have additional reservoir for heat management, and they also provide faster response (6 ms). It's $6400, though.

I don't know about its learning capabilities, but there are a few tables for different situations/scenarios, and I'd doubt that it could sway from that table more than a small percentage.

FYI, Z07 also has less dynamic range per test results; the regular Z06 magnetics provide much wider tunability range, possibly made so since they have to deal with much softer springs.

I wish I knew the spring rates of every suspension code; it would help.

[BaylorCamaro]

Hey X, I spoke to moderator on CF and they said to use the technical discussion of the appropriate generation for a build journal. I'm a bit surprised they don't have a specific section a lot of those guys sure do like making their car look pretty.

Anyways, I started mine.

You should too

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Chris, what were the before and after rear toe reading on your Vette?

Pete, they can barley add toe in with negative camber. I say apparently because it's the dealership and well we all know about dealerships. Unfortunately they're the only ones in my area with the rear caster measuring tool and gauge. The tech at my local track is going to get the tool after I talked to him about how huge of a difference it made. When he does I'll get a more legit alignment. Right now here's where I'm at:

Front (Driver/Passenger):
Camber: -2.0 / -2.1
Caster: 7.1 / 7.2
Toe: 0.01 toe in / 0.01 toe in

Rear (Driver/Passenger)
Camber: -2.0 / -1.9
Toe: 0.02 toe in / 0.02 toe in
Caster: Zero'd out

[clarkkent]

I'm going to have to make an account on corvette forum so I can follow your builds