POLL: What type of FI would you choose?

[Mike@KB]

Originally Posted by Z_Rocks

@Mike, is this the 3.8LC?

No that is the 2.8LC (liquid cooled)

[Z_Rocks]

Originally Posted by Mike@KB

No that is the 2.8LC (liquid cooled)

I really like the shape and the curve of intake going to the back. Now looks very mature and optimized!

Mike, why don't you give us a video [no music please] of the sc from different angles, as if someone was personally looking at it and then turn it on to hear the idle and reve it to 1500 and hold for a few seconds to hear how the SC sounds during cursing. I think time has come to show off the baby with more pics and videos and live dyno.

I think it would be a great educational video to show the parts of SC and how and why it makes the power.

Good luck guys with your new Camaro SC!

[axis]

Originally Posted by obzidian

I will end it with this:

I have highlighted the essence of your point.

I said, basically, that a twin setup has its place in the world and can be configured to make a certain kind of powerband and power delivery. Furthermore, I was discussing your point that twins don't make power and are just for show.

You said that twins are, and I quote, "....just that they were more for show." So, if they are just for show, then they are not needed, thus worthless since the cost spent of a twins setup is a waste.

You just contradicted yourself in the same sentence. You don't feel twins are worth the money since they are just for show, I.E. worthless (again, your words, not mine) BUT, and I urge you to think this through, DO NOT spread your opinion as fact since, in fact, it is your opinion and not the truth behind a twin turbo setup.

See you around.

A.

So it's YOUR opinion that if something is more for show it's worthless, not mine. If that's what you're reading, then you need to quit assuming and stick to what's being posted. You posted that properly sized and tuned twins give an advantage over the same properly sized and tuned single and you've yet to prove it. In fact your comparison graphs proved my side. So lets look at the FACTS again. Both setups being optimized for the 6.2l Camaro engine, the single will produce identical numbers as the twins at a weight savings, cost savings, clutter savings, and less hassle. Why would you NEED to go twins? You wouldn't, UNLESS you just want to have them, hense the term "for show". Are they AS GOOD? Absolutely, but at what cost? If someone chooses to pay for twins, then it's their decision, but what are you getting for your increase in price?

Originally Posted by obzidian

Look, I'll play fair:

Single turbo:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...1&d=1267106384

Twin turbo:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attach...1&d=1267743985

Notice the torque peaks, almost a 1000rpm difference between the two. Also, look at the flatness of the powerband... IMO, the twin turbo setup, comparing these two ONLY, is matched (though a tune will make a big difference) better to the LS3 than the single.

NOW, very simple, a single turbo can be configured to make TONS of torque lower in the powerband and able to power through earlier than later after going WOT. This is just a example of what I was asked of and easily available here on the forum. For example, the VRE single turbo has the torque peak around 3700rpms OR around the same rpms range as the twin turbo setup shown above.

You might want to quit looking at peak numbers/rpm and look at the ACTUAL numbers/rpm. The single put out the exact same tq at the exact same RPM, AND WENT UP FROM THERE. In fact, if you plot both HP and Tq through the RPM range, it's almost identical up to 3800rpm, then the single took off. I assume it hit it's peak efficiency range right about there. The HP was limited as it's only a 62mm turbo. As we've seen with the VRE 76mm, those numbers don't change except for the HP keeps going up too. Thanks for proving my point though.

[obzidian]

Mike: Why the LC setup on that 2.8L blower? Are you seeing enough temperature differences in that case? Not all 2.8's are LC, correct?

[obzidian]

Anyone else wants to bring something to the table?

[TiE2000]

I believe Cost is the determining factor over anything else.


Just from reading the forums, I believe price is in this order from most expensive to in-expensive

Twin Turbo (not STS)
Turbo
Cent
Positive displacement

I also believe this is the reason why most people on this forum have the TVS system... it's a proven reliable and cost effective way to produce power. Also on the plus side, since more people own it, more people can assist when a issue arises.


**Obzidian -- I employ your efforts in getting people to concider a Turbo over a SC, but until price comes down, it may be hard to get people to see other wise.

That being said... if cost was not an issue, TURBO all the way... IMO nothing, NOTHING sounds better then a spooling turbo, with a deep throaty exhaust.

[obzidian]

Interesting point.... but I'm the kind of person that if we are already talking about thousands of dollars and a kit was about 1-2 off, I would hold out and wait until I had enough to get what I really wanted.

Interesting, I have never looked at it; How much are the TVS2300 kits going for anyways? $6999.99? $5999.99? Something like that, right?

[TiE2000]

Originally Posted by obzidian

Interesting point.... but I'm the kind of person that if we are already talking about thousands of dollars and a kit was about 1-2 off, I would hold out and wait until I had enough to get what I really wanted.

Interesting, I have never looked at it; How much are the TVS2300 kits going for anyways? $6999.99? $5999.99? Something like that, right?

TVS2300-- your about right... depending on install, who you orderd through ect... we'll say 6500.

[axis]

Originally Posted by TiE2000

TVS2300-- your about right... depending on install, who you orderd through ect... we'll say 6500.

That's about the same price as TTP's single turbo setup. I think they quote $6650 with the 62mm and $400 more for the 72mm. That is shipped to your door without a tune. I think a handheld tune would run you $400 more. Not sure how TTP's setup is but VRE's can "supposedly" be installed in your driveway with some jacks and tools. This is the same for the TVS.

[TiE2000]

Originally Posted by axis

That's about the same price as TTP's single turbo setup. I think they quote $6650 with the 62mm and $400 more for the 72mm. That is shipped to your door without a tune. I think a handheld tune would run you $400 more. Not sure how TTP's setup is but VRE's can "supposedly" be installed in your driveway with some jacks and tools. This is the same for the TVS.

Now my question would be, difficulty in DIY... it seems the turbo install would be more complicated for an "average" every day DIY'er... and since the Turbo kit would have more hardware... it seems a professional job would be a bit more costly over a SC set up.

I don't want to speak for the community here... but I personally would not feel comfortable installing my own F/I set up... as too may logistics would be involved then just unbolting and "hooking" up.

[obzidian]

Originally Posted by axis

That's about the same price as TTP's single turbo setup. I think they quote $6650 with the 62mm and $400 more for the 72mm. That is shipped to your door without a tune. I think a handheld tune would run you $400 more. Not sure how TTP's setup is but VRE's can "supposedly" be installed in your driveway with some jacks and tools. This is the same for the TVS.

You see, we can agree on something.

I have seen the VRE in person and driven a car with that kit. Excellent kit IMO. With some jack stands and a few helping hands, I can see where that kit can be installed in your driveway.

The kit is $5999.99 or $6k and it comes with a turbonetics hurricane T76. (great turbo! Plenty of power without having to swap it out) Dyno tune can be around $550 to $700 (with dyno time), plus injectors and plugs and you do you own install I can see where you can get it all done for about $6900.00

That is about $400.00 more than a PDS kit. Have them install it and I believe they quote 7500.00 or so... not bad for a complete installed, dyno tuned kit.

Originally Posted by TiE2000

Now my question would be, difficulty in DIY... it seems the turbo install would be more complicated for an "average" every day DIY'er... and since the Turbo kit would have more hardware... it seems a professional job would be a bit more costly over a SC set up.

I don't want to speak for the community here... but I personally would not feel comfortable installing my own F/I set up... as too may logistics would be involved then just unbolting and "hooking" up.

Well, Look at it this way. A turbo system can be broken up in two parts. You have your cold-side and your hot-side. A turbo has an (hot) exhaust housing and a (cold) compressor housing.

So, You cold side includes the plumbing from the compressor to the intake manifold, and along the way it has the intercooler, BOV and potentially the MAF and IAT sensors. Not a big deal, PDS has the same thing except for having the bypass built into the blower housing. The hot-side is just the down-pipe. On the manifold, you have the WG.

So, initially, it can be a lot of stuff but it really is simple when you can categorize it accordingly. But it all bolts up to their respective flange and the plumbing all goes together easy enough.

Honestly, once you have it all "mocked up" on your living room floor, it all starts to make sense and if you can install a PDS, with all the electronics, water pump, heat exchanger, pin the crank and the water lines, you can get this done. Remember, there is more to a PDS than just the shinny blower replacing your intake manifold!

[Jchaluja]

I'm going by memory here, so I may be incorrect, but in order to get a camaro with a tvs 2300 to output as much power the VRE kit gets, you would need to add headers and cam I believe....that would also need to factor into the the equation of the cost no?

Most all cars I've seen with tvs 2300's have headers and cai at least and a good chunk have cams as well.

PS I'm not trying to put down s/c's, infact I think they are great, I'm just trying to get the word out there that turbos are as good

[Z_Rocks]

Originally Posted by Jchaluja

I'm going by memory here, so I may be incorrect, but in order to get a camaro with a tvs 2300 to output as much power the VRE kit gets, you would need to add headers and cam I believe....that would also need to factor into the the equation of the cost no?

Most all cars I've seen with tvs 2300's have headers and cai at least and a good chunk have cams as well.

PS I'm not trying to put down s/c's, infact I think they are great, I'm just trying to get the word out there that turbos are as good

I love TT. I'm not too crazy about single turbo having all the heat in the engine bay. But a good designed TT could result the best performance. Right now we have three reputable vendors working on TT kits which is going to be interesting to see the best design, best price and best performance with least lag.
Hellion, RPM and TTiX.

[obzidian]

That heat, from turbo's even tucked down and close to the motor, will generate double the amount of heat and as we all know, heat will rise.

A single turbo, and the heat generated by the turbo and hot-side, can be kept in check header wrap or thermal wrap and a decent turbo blanket.

But, honestly, engine bay temps, unless it is enough to melt wires, isn't really a problem. If you have concerns with keeping your air track cool, there are similar heat barrier wraps that will help deal with it however, it really isn't that big a deal..... headers will get the temps up, and lets not mention the heat soak from a metal blower compressing air (heating it up) and stuffing it down into your heads.