Chassis stiffeners and strut braces.

[mws444]

Originally Posted by radz282003

PLEASE - let's everyone stay on topic and don't even go near another company. I encourage everyone to continue to comment but be very careful to stay away from arguing. There is a wealth of information we have the potnential to read and digest, and I'd hate to have to shut it down and delete what could lead into a bunch of bickering. Please - let's talk about YOUR products and leave comments directed at another company out of this thread. Educate us - don't push us away with bickering or suggestive tones

On that note, I'm considering a blend of component from both companies - honestly. I love the solid subframe mounts (despite the cost but having seen these in person, and in action on the video). I'm loving the control arms and such. Now, is the only part of the chassis Pfadt is questioning the integrity of the front of the car, since you don't offer SFCs?

Man I just cant help myself sometimes.
It's all good guys, both of you are awsome for the Camaro! I think competition makes everyone better. Keep the new and better stuff coming!

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by MisterCamaro69

Nice find! Thanks Pete

I have people that keep me pointed in the right direction.

[2010 Bumblebee]

See article for pictures.

http://www.motorator.com/blog/gm/hot...ut-tower-brace

Hotchkis Improves the Handling and Traction of Your 2010 Camaro

May 5, 2010



Like most modern muscle cars, the new 2010 Camaro suffers from flaws in chassis strength resulting in poor traction and handling. The stock rear subframe is prone to shift under hard acceleration, and hard cornering causes the strut towers to flex, reducing traction and stability. Hotchkis Sport Suspension has the solution with their new 2010 Camaro Chassis Max Brace and Strut Brace.

Hotchkis 2010 Camaro Chassis Max Brace
Installing a Hotchkis Sport Suspension Chassis Max Brace reduces chassis flex and improves traction during hard launches and high-speed cornering by triangulating the rear sub frame to the chassis frame rails. Manufactured from strong, lightweight elliptical aluminum tubing and mated to laser cut, CNC machined aluminum brackets, the system bolts on in minutes.




The Chassis Max Brace has excellent ground clearance and fits with most aftermarket exhaust systems. Finished in durable anthracite powder coat, the Chassis Brace is a must have for any modern Camaro. The Chassis Brace is available by itself for a retail price or parts of a Track Pack that includes sport springs and Adjustable Sport Sway Bar Kit. The Hotchkis Chassis Max Brace has a retails price of $550.00.

Features:
• Strong lightweight elliptical aluminum tubing
• Laser cut, CNC aluminum brackets
• Excellent ground clearance
• Direct bolt-on installation
• Durable powder coated finish

Benefits:
• Reduces sub-frame flex and wheel hop
• Increases chassis rigidity
• Improves handling and traction
• Improves handling responsiveness

Hotchkis 2010 Camaro Chassis Max Brace Installation

Hotchkis Chassis Max Strut Brace
Under hard cornering and when driving over uneven surfaces the unsupported strut towers of the 2010 Camaro momentarily distort, reducing stability and control. The new Chassis Max Strut Tower Brace from Hotchkis adds necessary rigidity to the Camaro by eliminating strut tower flex.



The Hotchkis Chassis Max Strut Brace ties the strut towers together at four mounting points, maximizing the performance gain from other chassis mods such as sport springs and sport sway bars. This four-point mounting system significantly improves traction during high-speed cornering.




Manufactured from strong, lightweight 1-¼” tubing and mated to laser cut, CNC machined brackets and laser-cut corner gussets, the system bolts on in minutes. The brace has been designed to fit stock engine compartments as well as most popular aftermarket supercharger systems and cold air intakes. It also includes brackets to move the reservoir.




Finished in durable anthracite powder coat, the brace includes all necessary installation hardware and detailed instructions. Like all Hotchkis Performance products the brace is designed, track tested and manufactured in the USA using domestic materials. The Hotchkis 2010 Camaro Chassis Max Strut Brace is available for a retail price of $302.95.



Features:
• Fabricated from strong, lightweight 1-¼” DOM steel tubing with laser cut brackets and gussets
• Four-point mounting system for maximum strut tower strength
• Works with naturally aspirated and Magnuson superchargers
• Easy installation with included hardware package
• Finished in durable semi-gloss black powder coat

Benefits:
• Reduces sub-frame flex
• Increases chassis rigidity
• Improves handling responsiveness
• Will clear factory intake manifold cover on non-supercharged cars

[rdono]

I may be beating a dead horse here, but this car needs nothing but perhaps a six point roll over bar just in case you do. One can never be too safe.

Adding AM bolt on items designed to stiffen the chassis is foolish and a waste of time/money as they will add little or no benefit. The gen 5 is one of the best built uni-structers ever built by GM. I make a living repairing heavy crash repairs on exotic and racing cars and this tub impresses me no end.

[600hp-lpe]

2010 Bumblebee,
I noticed that you are probably less than 100 miles from where I live. I would like to offer you a ride in a correctly set up well handling car.

That way you can see one firsthand and compare it to a stock Camaro, and see what you could potentially purchase to improve issues like wheel hop, body roll, and handling.

Pfadt and Pedders are the best suspension companies out there - especially for the Fifth Gen Camaro. They DO have different objectives, however (Race vs. Street), but both have a common outcome - to make the best components possible for purchase by the consumer.

The aftermarket is a big place. There are lots of great parts that work as advertised. There are also what I call "black holes" - the opposite of the truth. Falling into a black hole when dealing with aftermarket items will mess you up more than fixing a problem you are trying to overcome.

Let's say you bought part X to fix an issue. If part X is expensive, you would be reluctant to remove it to try anything else. This can cause grief in more than one way - It might be the best for a specific issue, but may adversely impact other areas.

Take wheelhop for instance. There is more than one way to fix wheelhop in the 5th gen Camaro. I can't count how many companies make a part for the 5th gen Camaro that state "part X will fix the wheel hop on your car". All of them will change the dynamics of how wheelhop will be impacted. The wise consumer will seek out other people that have already addressed the problem, see what solutions are available, and what he would like to do.

Wheelhop can be addressed a couple of diffeerent ways. Here are 3 different ways to address wheel hop. There are probably over 30 different solutions that could address it in one way or another.

1.) Here is a FREE fix to eliminate wheel hop - instead of doing a burnout in first gear, use second. Maximizing wheelspin will eliminate wheel hop without buying any parts whatsoever.

2.) Wheelhop could be addressed with the Hotchkis chassis brace. Eliminated with just that part? doubtful. The dynamics of the rear suspension will change. Basically, you are BOLTING a bar to a portion of your rear suspension, minimizing movement of the rear subframe. The rear end will still move somewhere else when the harmonics are just right to induce wheelhop. I havn't tried it.. others on the forum have. I would not use this item personally, as it is not the direction I want to go in as this binds a portion of the rear suspension from moving.

3.) Pedders and Pfadt control the rear suspension movement by changing the stock rubber bushings and eliminating the deflection the soft rubber stock bushings have.
This differs from a chassis brace as the suspension can still move when needed. This would be a more preferred solution as the suspension still works and is not bound up.

Get my point? Personally, trial and error is not what you want to be doing as the 5th Gen Camaro is super expensive for buying parts, and you will end up with a "black hole". You need to study, examine, and read everything you can get your hands on, and then ask questions. Be an informed consumer, and your project will be better for it.

[mws444]

Originally Posted by 570hp-lpe

2010 Bumblebee,
I noticed that you are probably less than 100 miles from where I live. I would like to offer you a ride in a correctly set up well handling car.

That way you can see one firsthand and compare it to a stock Camaro, and see what you could potentially purchase to improve issues like wheel hop, body roll, and handling.

Pfadt and Pedders are the best suspension companies out there - especially for the Fifth Gen Camaro. They DO have different objectives, however (Race vs. Street), but both have a common outcome - to make the best components possible for purchase by the consumer.

The aftermarket is a big place. There are lots of great parts that work as advertised. There are also what I call "black holes" - the opposite of the truth. Falling into a black hole when dealing with aftermarket items will mess you up more than fixing a problem you are trying to overcome.

Let's say you bought part X to fix an issue. If part X is expensive, you would be reluctant to remove it to try anything else. This can cause grief in more than one way - It might be the best for a specific issue, but may adversely impact other areas.

Take wheelhop for instance. There is more than one way to fix wheelhop in the 5th gen Camaro. I can't count how many companies make a part for the 5th gen Camaro that state "part X will fix the wheel hop on your car". All of them will change the dynamics of how wheelhop will be impacted. The wise consumer will seek out other people that have already addressed the problem, see what solutions are available, and what he would like to do.

Wheelhop can be addressed a couple of diffeerent ways. Here are 3 different ways to address wheel hop. There are probably over 30 different solutions that could address it in one way or another.

1.) Here is a FREE fix to eliminate wheel hop - instead of doing a burnout in first gear, use second. Maximizing wheelspin will eliminate wheel hop without buying any parts whatsoever.

2.) Wheelhop could be addressed with the Hotchkis chassis brace. Eliminated with just that part? doubtful. The dynamics of the rear suspension will change. Basically, you are BOLTING a bar to a portion of your rear suspension, minimizing movement of the rear subframe. The rear end will still move somewhere else when the harmonics are just right to induce wheelhop. I havn't tried it.. others on the forum have. I would not use this item personally, as it is not the direction I want to go in as this binds a portion of the rear suspension from moving.

3.) Pedders and Pfadt control the rear suspension movement by changing the stock rubber bushings and eliminating the deflection the soft rubber stock bushings have.
This differs from a chassis brace as the suspension can still move when needed. This would be a more preferred solution as the suspension still works and is not bound up.

Get my point? Personally, trial and error is not what you want to be doing as the 5th Gen Camaro is super expensive for buying parts, and you will end up with a "black hole". You need to study, examine, and read everything you can get your hands on, and then ask questions. Be an informed consumer, and your project will be better for it.

570...perfect explanation! A lot of people do not understand wheel hop, you put into words a difficult concept so we can all understand it....Good writeup!
I am also with you on the bushings, solve whell hop and gain overall performance.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by 570hp-lpe

2010 Bumblebee,
I noticed that you are probably less than 100 miles from where I live. I would like to offer you a ride in a correctly set up well handling car.

That way you can see one firsthand and compare it to a stock Camaro, and see what you could potentially purchase to improve issues like wheel hop, body roll, and handling.

Pfadt and Pedders are the best suspension companies out there - especially for the Fifth Gen Camaro. They DO have different objectives, however (Race vs. Street), but both have a common outcome - to make the best components possible for purchase by the consumer.

The aftermarket is a big place. There are lots of great parts that work as advertised. There are also what I call "black holes" - the opposite of the truth. Falling into a black hole when dealing with aftermarket items will mess you up more than fixing a problem you are trying to overcome.

Let's say you bought part X to fix an issue. If part X is expensive, you would be reluctant to remove it to try anything else. This can cause grief in more than one way - It might be the best for a specific issue, but may adversely impact other areas.

Take wheelhop for instance. There is more than one way to fix wheelhop in the 5th gen Camaro. I can't count how many companies make a part for the 5th gen Camaro that state "part X will fix the wheel hop on your car". All of them will change the dynamics of how wheelhop will be impacted. The wise consumer will seek out other people that have already addressed the problem, see what solutions are available, and what he would like to do.

Wheelhop can be addressed a couple of diffeerent ways. Here are 3 different ways to address wheel hop. There are probably over 30 different solutions that could address it in one way or another.

1.) Here is a FREE fix to eliminate wheel hop - instead of doing a burnout in first gear, use second. Maximizing wheelspin will eliminate wheel hop without buying any parts whatsoever.

2.) Wheelhop could be addressed with the Hotchkis chassis brace. Eliminated with just that part? doubtful. The dynamics of the rear suspension will change. Basically, you are BOLTING a bar to a portion of your rear suspension, minimizing movement of the rear subframe. The rear end will still move somewhere else when the harmonics are just right to induce wheelhop. I havn't tried it.. others on the forum have. I would not use this item personally, as it is not the direction I want to go in as this binds a portion of the rear suspension from moving.

3.) Pedders and Pfadt control the rear suspension movement by changing the stock rubber bushings and eliminating the deflection the soft rubber stock bushings have.
This differs from a chassis brace as the suspension can still move when needed. This would be a more preferred solution as the suspension still works and is not bound up.

Get my point? Personally, trial and error is not what you want to be doing as the 5th Gen Camaro is super expensive for buying parts, and you will end up with a "black hole". You need to study, examine, and read everything you can get your hands on, and then ask questions. Be an informed consumer, and your project will be better for it.

Originally Posted by mws444

570...perfect explanation! A lot of people do not understand wheel hop, you put into words a difficult concept so we can all understand it....Good writeup!
I am also with you on the bushings, solve whell hop and gain overall performance.

+2 Kudos!!!

[JusticePete]

If your sub-frame moves because the bushes are more compliant than appropriate for your driving upgrade the bush and eliminate the problem at the source.



It has been Pedders philosophy for years to address vehicles from the foundational level. We start with the weakest link, the lowest hanging fruit. On a 5th Gen that is sub-frame and radius bush inserts. This goes against conventional wisdom. Most would start with sway bars. That is putting lipstick on a pig. It looks better, it may feel better, but the foundational issues will remain the same. Upgrades should be made at the source and not treat symptoms.

You cannot run the Optima Challenge and do well if your vehicle is flexing. The suspension would not work. You have all seen this video. The car works and works incredibly well.



It worked because GM built the car to work and Pedders replaced or added only what needed to be replaced or added to this robust foundation.









In 2010, Pedders put a Camaro on a race course that ran Z06 Corvette times. People were impressed. It ran very well.



With our new Supercar coilovers, the same Camaro is running faster, much faster. We will release the numbers after an official run in a few weeks. For now, you should know that the car is faster, much faster around the track with the new Supercar Coilovers. Exit speeds in the corners are up 3.6 MPH on average. If you know racing, you know those are HUGE gains. Lap times for Pedders Camaro are down into race car territory. For 2010 we will not benchmark against street cars. We will bench mark our daily driver on street tires, the car that we take the kids to school in, against full on race cars.



Anyone can make a car go around a track by making it rock hard. Anyone can build a fast race car, all it takes is money. The trick is taking a street car, keeping all the amenities including ride quality and running as fast as a race car. That is Pedders specialty. We make street parts that just happen to run well (faster than a C6 Vette, faster than a CTS-V full on race car) on a race track.

[mws444]

I guess I will throw my two cents in here, now that my car has almost every suspension upgrade available done. I really dont think you really need any bracing, it you like the looks go for it, but you dont need it for the street warrior. Full on racing maybe, but unless you are running full race tires even with my Nittos, you will run out of tire grip before things get loose because of body flex.
We all do things for looks sometimes rather than performance, it you like the looks run with it. I really feel my car will run with anything less than a ZR1, and I will bet the ZR1 driver will feel me chasing him. Comparing a 40k car to a 125k car is a stretch, but even with all of my mods I am still way under the ZR1 price and can carry the wife and kids with me. I love the Camaro and love the fact that I can run with the best cars on the road for less money with more room. Most of the time it will be a drivers race anyway.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by mws444

I guess I will throw my two cents in here, now that my car has almost every suspension upgrade available done. I really dont think you really need any bracing, it you like the looks go for it, but you dont need it for the street warrior. Full on racing maybe, but unless you are running full race tires even with my Nittos, you will run out of tire grip before things get loose because of body flex.
We all do things for looks sometimes rather than performance, it you like the looks run with it. I really feel my car will run with anything less than a ZR1, and I will bet the ZR1 driver will feel me chasing him. Comparing a 40k car to a 125k car is a stretch, but even with all of my mods I am still way under the ZR1 price and can carry the wife and kids with me. I love the Camaro and love the fact that I can run with the best cars on the road for less money with more room. Most of the time it will be a drivers race anyway.

[Info@PeddersUSA.com]

what he said!!

mike
dms

[dlara01]

I just installed lowering springs (I had sway bars added) which didn't void the warrenty and improved the handling 100%. Although it stiffened the ride I now don't plow through the corners like I used to. I can't wait to take it to the track (NASA) to see how it performs. So far on the street I feel safer at speed than I have in the 1st 8,000 miles. I used eibach for the price and performance and have no complaints.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by dlara01

I just installed lowering springs (I had sway bars added) which didn't void the warrenty.

What does that mean to you?

[ratnow]

Perormace upgrades should be looked at from the intended use of the car...

Here is what I have done with my 2010 Camaro SS that I drive on the street and on road racing tracks.

Level One - Cold Air Intake, Exhaust, Programming
Level Two - Level One Upgrades plus Lowering Springs, Adjustable Sway Bars. Level Three - Level Two Upgrades, Brake Pads, Shifter, Alignment.
Level Four - Level Three Upgrades plus....$$$???

When you reach Level Four you need not be concerned about this discussion. You are creating a whole different beast that you would not be able to realize the full potential on the street. Nobody in this discussion started out with "I'm building a dedicated track car..."

I am able to stay with the C5 and C6 Corvettes through the turns with just Level Three Upgrades. The 5th gen Camaro is just that good!

I have run the car hard enough to know that I can feel the rear suspension cradle moving around only when the suspension is fully loaded in a turn that has bumps or dips. This could be mistaken by some of you as chassis flex. I doubt anyone can feel chassis flex in a car as stiff as a Gen 5 Camaro.

From my experience I would have to say that I would not worry about chassis flex until I resolved the obvious handling and performance issue with the Gen 5 Camaro. Springs and swaybars make a "HUGE" difference. Intake, exhaust and programming are worth 30 to 50 horsepower.

Once you have resolved the basics, take the car to a race track and see if can drive the car fast enough for rear suspension cradle issue to be a concern. If so, then start looking at bushings and chassis stiffeners and coil-over suspension.

The Gen 5 Camaro is a great performance platform that responds well to upgrades. Some you can feel from the drivers seat and some you cannot. So choose them wisely and be honest about how you intend to use the car.