Adjustable sway bar setting for daily driver?

[Rob@WretchedMS]

lol

[JProberts]

After speaking with Pete I have decided to go with the sub-fame inserts as he suggested. He feels that this is the best way to go to get the cart to where I want it which is just firming up the rear end and making it feel as planted as the front does now with the front sway bar.

As I have stated before I'm not looking for a racing type set-up with my suspension and he believes that the sub-frame inserts will give me what I'm looking for more so that just adding a rear sway bar.

If I add the rear sway bar it might not really get me the improvements I am looking for. If the sub-frame inserts do not do the trick than the rear sway bar is still an option, but Pete really believe that this won't be the case and I trust his professional opinion, he hasn't been wrong so far so that is all I can ask for.

So Pedders will be sending the sub-frame inserts to TandT and hopefully Tim will be able to install them with the same precesion he did the front sway bar and end links. The sub-frame inserts will be the only mod done at this time. I will wait to do the lowering springs until I have driven the car and given some feedback on what the car feels like with just the sub-frame inserts added.

He is a question for you Pete. I have noticed since adding the front sway bar that while driving on curves on some bumpy roads around 45mph I have noticed that while the front of the car absorbs the bumps and stays perfectly on line the rear end will kind of bump and kick out. Now before the front end would act much the same way as the back but after adding the front sway it was drastically improved.

My quetion is will the sub-frame inserts solve this type of problem?

Thanks again Pete

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by JProberts

After speaking with Pete I have decided to go with the sub-fame inserts as he suggested. He feels that this is the best way to go to get the cart to where I want it which is just firming up the rear end and making it feel as planted as the front does now with the front sway bar.

As I have stated before I'm not looking for a racing type set-up with my suspension and he believes that the sub-frame inserts will give me what I'm looking for more so that just adding a rear sway bar.

If I add the rear sway bar it might not really get me the improvements I am looking for. If the sub-frame inserts do not do the trick than the rear sway bar is still an option, but Pete really believe that this won't be the case and I trust his professional opinion, he hasn't been wrong so far so that is all I can ask for.

So Pedders will be sending the sub-frame inserts to TandT and hopefully Tim will be able to install them with the same precesion he did the front sway bar and end links. The sub-frame inserts will be the only mod done at this time. I will wait to do the lowering springs until I have driven the car and given some feedback on what the car feels like with just the sub-frame inserts added.

He is a question for you Pete. I have noticed since adding the front sway bar that while driving on curves on some bumpy roads around 45mph I have noticed that while the front of the car absorbs the bumps and stays perfectly on line the rear end will kind of bump and kick out. Now before the front end would act much the same way as the back but after adding the front sway it was drastically improved.

My quetion is will the sub-frame inserts solve this type of problem?

Thanks again Pete

A Short answer == YES.

What you describe is rear end step out and that is cuased by the entire IRS shifting under load in the heavily NVH voided sub-frame bushes. Under the conditiontions you describe, the rear end is steering the car. That is exactly what the sub-frame bushes will address. They are shipping today.

www.PeddersUSA.com The Book on 5th Gen Suspension

[Redemption]

Originally Posted by JProberts

He is a question for you Pete. I have noticed since adding the front sway bar that while driving on curves on some bumpy roads around 45mph I have noticed that while the front of the car absorbs the bumps and stays perfectly on line the rear end will kind of bump and kick out. Now before the front end would act much the same way as the back but after adding the front sway it was drastically improved.

My quetion is will the sub-frame inserts solve this type of problem?

Thanks again Pete

This will all go away with those inserts. The difference is amazing! You will be very happy! Even when you are hitting huge bumps, dips, whatnot, the car settles right back and you can keep hanging that turn with confidence. I have been pushing mine harder and harder, and I am shocked on how fast this car can take turns now, even when getting upset with a bump!

And get ready to be buying more red suspension parts.... its an addiction!

Now I want more power!!

J

[Dr Jkel]

OK a noob question here please forgive me for this crazy question but I honestly don't know. SO here it goes.

From my limited understanding the reason you put sways on the front and rear is to limit body roll and " Swaying" Correct?

Lowering springs will give you the more aggressive stance by lowering the car, Correct?

Then why would you need the sub frame bushings inserts if you have front and rear sways, what is the purpose of those inserts.

Now after you answer that? Do I need the insert after the front and sways are installed? How can I, Noob, tell driving my car?

I appreciate the info.

[JusticePete]

If your foundation under your house is cracked, do you fix the squeaking screen door on the porch expecting the crack to go away?


At Pedders we approach aftermarket suspension modifications in a philosophical way that is quite different from all other suspension companies. We examine a vehicle and look for the weakest links in the vehicle because addressing those will yield the greatest performance gain. We do not look at what people think is sexy and will line up to buy.

Sway bars are a great example. We could put 6' diameter sway bars on the rear of the Camaro and the rear end would still step out because the cause of rear end step out is not the sway bar diameter. It is the NVH voided sub-frame bushes.

http://www.peddersusa.com/PS_images/assets/EP1200-1.gif

The OE NVH voids allow the sub-frame to move around. The foundation is not as stable as most enthusiast drivers would prefer. Instead of replacing the entire bush, we just fill the voids. As RWHP and driver demands raise the need for even greater stability we have more aggressive choices. The point is that when the rear IRS assembly moves of shifts under load from turning, acceleration or bumps in the road the sub-frame shifts and essentially steers the vehicle in a condition known as rear end step out.

The voids in the pictures are the reason this occurs. It occurs in a number of high priced Euro-vehicles as well as the Chrysler LX. Some companies choose to fix the screen door instead of addressing a foundational issue at the foundational level. Sway bars are not the answer. Braces are not the answer. The ONLY answer is to improve the stability of the four IRS mounting points.



You can see the IRS sub-frame assembly is no longer moving, twisting, or doing anything undesirable. It is now stable and allows the rest of the Camaro state-of-the-art IRS to function as designed. You could weld a brace to it. You could do a lot of things to it, but the correct way to resolve it is with w street civil set of EP1200 inserts for probably 85 or 90% of Camaro owners. As you performance demands increase, we offer a full bush replacement and then a Delryin like durometer EP1200HD.

Once the sub-frame bushes are in place and you Camaro foundation sound lowering springs and other suspension upgrades will work well because you have created a sound foundation to build on. In the Camaro community, especially for those who own or have owned earlier versions of the car selling sub-frame and other chassis braces is an easy sell. The older Camaros needed them. Your 5th Gen doesn't need chassis braces or triangulation unless you have installed a full race cage and intend to tie the additional braces to the cage.

Most Camaro owners never experience understeer and the OE Camaro does understeer when driven past 9/10s. Since this is true, we recommend only a front sway bar to reduce the lean and roll that some Camaro owners find objectionable. What we do recommend to ALL Camaro owners are radius and sub-frame bush inserts as the lowest hanging fruit to improve brake pedal feel, to remove that slight shudder in the steering wheel over bumps and sub-frame bush inserts to eliminate rear end step out. 90% of the people that own a Camaro will feel the difference and enjoy their cars more.

If you click on the 5th Gen Suspension book in my signature you can read a more detailed explanation of the 5th Gen suspension, brakes, wheels and tires. Bottom line, address the problem at the source and never put lipstick on a pig. It is still a pig and now looks silly with the lipstick.

www.PeddersUSA.com The Book on 5th Gen Suspension

[radz28]

Pete - your sig' is MIA

Great information from all our Sponsors in this thread. KUDOS to everyone.

[JusticePete]

Odd, it shows in my User CP

www.PeddersUSA.com The Book on 5th Gen Suspension

[JusticePete]

Ok, now I have doubles????

[radz28]

I see it now... Maybe it was my PC. Sorry

Carry on!

[Redemption]

Originally Posted by Dr Jkel

OK a noob question here please forgive me for this crazy question but I honestly don't know. SO here it goes.

From my limited understanding the reason you put sways on the front and rear is to limit body roll and " Swaying" Correct?
YES, and it helps with the understeer that the Camaro has.

Lowering springs will give you the more aggressive stance by lowering the car, Correct?

Yes, and having a lower center of gravity also helps with handling as well, (to a point, then you start messing up the geometry of the suspension and actually can make it worse, in handling aspects.

Then why would you need the sub frame bushings inserts if you have front and rear sways, what is the purpose of those inserts.

Pete's post covered that part. in simple terms, the bushings in the rear are weak-links.... Designed to reduce noise inside the car, and are ok for lil ole lady drivers =) LOL The inserts fill the voids in the bushings, which will transfer the forces, verses twisting/moving/etc, alloing the car to plant better. (My own rookie terms)

Now after you answer that? Do I need the insert after the front and sways are installed? How can I, Noob, tell driving my car?

I did inserts, lowering springs all at once. I later changed to coilovers instead of the lower springs... If youre gonna do it, go BIG! haha

You can do it in any order, but the sway bars or springs will not be used to their potentienal without the inserts or full on new bushings.

Personally, I like to do 1 part at a time, to really feel the differences. But in the case of suspension, my advice would be to get what ever you can afford and do it all at once.

But realistic with yourself.... Are you really going to push the car to need a boat load of parts? Or do you just want to hang those on ramps so the blood rushes out of your head??

Ive got more than I probably need, but I also really want to get into autocrossing, even just for fun! So I am prepared for the future as well. (rear, front inserts, Xa Coilovers, and the front/rear sway bars with endlinks, for now! =)

Pete really knows his stuff and can give you the professional aspects of what I just said. But I know me... and I like to hear the "greasy, shadetree mechanic terms" too!

Jason

I appreciate the info.

Jason

[Dr Jkel]

Originally Posted by Redemption

Jason

Jason,
I understand your point and I appreciate the info. So if I undertand you correct it really depends on what you are going to do with your car.

Remember I'm a noob at this stuff. Basically I do not drag or road race and I am looking for a stance and to eliminate the body roll when entering the interstate and things like that. Any " Racing " that I do is more of street light to street light kinda stuff or more of a roll from 35 to 75. Kinda like you said to make the blood rush from you head.

I am new to Camaro's and this is the first I have owned, so I don't really know all the other technical stuff but am learning.

Several members have suggested sways and lowering springs and this is why I asking, not a specific brand but more of what. I am sure that there are many flaws in the Camaro's suspension if you intend to race and I am sure that the vendors here have the perfect solution to fix these flaws, but I am not wanting to rebuild the whole suspension because it can be a never ending story, if you know what I mean.

So that is why I am asking these questions, to learn without wasting money so to speak.

[JusticePete]

Let me try again.

You want to build a fence. The first thing you do is set the posts in the ground, preferably in cement. With the fence posts set, you can build any kind of fence you want. If you choose to set your fence posts in Jello, instead of cement, no matter what the posts were made of (tooth picks, carbon fiber or titanium) they would all wobble in the Jello foundation and the post material would not matter.



Black OE rubber bushes with NVH voids = Jello / wiggle / rear end step out
Black OE rubber bushes with voids filled by Pedders EP1200 inserts = Cement / stability / predictability / rear end step out.

You can add anything and everything to the rear of the Camaro, but until you address the foundational issue with IRS sub-frame stability rear end step out not only remains, but can get much more pronounced. Always, always start with the foundation.

[JProberts]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Let me try again.

You want to build a fence. The first thing you do is set the posts in the ground, preferably in cement. With the fence posts set, you can build any kind of fence you want. If you choose to set your fence posts in Jello, instead of cement, no matter what the posts were made of (tooth picks, carbon fiber or titanium) they would all wobble in the Jello foundation and the post material would not matter.



Black OE rubber bushes with NVH voids = Jello / wiggle / rear end step out
Black OE rubber bushes with voids filled by Pedders EP1200 inserts = Cement / stability / predictability / rear end step out.

You can add anything and everything to the rear of the Camaro, but until you address the foundational issue with IRS sub-frame stability rear end step out not only remains, but can get much more pronounced. Always, always start with the foundation.

How do the EP1200 inserts affect the cabin sound in the 2SS?

And is this "rear end step out" what I feel when taking a bumpy curb at 45mph and the back end feels like it is skipping across the road?