2014 Camaro Z/28 pricing announced at $75,000

[backtotintops]

Originally Posted by Zfatuated

And I built a full cage GT3RS on which I maintained street insurance/registration and license tag while it's mission in life was a 100% track car. Had I ever been pulled over on the street driving it to the gas station, it likely would have been impounded and/or confiscated. A full cage car is not legal, by DMV standards, to be street driven.

I had several run ins with johnny law and even some mean ones in upstate NY…they knew we were heading to the glen and never mentioned anything about the race mods…plates checked, reggy and insurance checked and fat ticket for speeding to me. Sparco removable wheel and no airbag. Is this a Nevada thing or maybe I'm totally wrong about NY and they just don't enforce it??? Do you have a DMV link citing this for Nevada or NY?

Originally Posted by Zfatuated

Not to mention it's just dumb because all that cromoly tubing around your unhelmeted head will kill you on the street just as quick as it will save your helmeted self on track. Yes, I was dumb to drive mine on the street the very few times I did.

Yes one would be dumb not to install the thick closed cell roll bar padding on any bar even close to your body. A good prepped car would have this everywhere. It's actually softer for impact than any surface in a stock vehicle.

Originally Posted by Zfatuated

Furthermore, if you have a full cage you do not want any airbags popping off in the cabin. So if you've done the proper thing and disabled your airbags to keep from hurting you and costing you money if you wreck on track, now you are doubly-street illegal.

I removed the driver's side and the passenger's was defeated by a key. Link please regarding the legality of removal of airbags on your own car?

Originally Posted by Zfatuated

"Knowledge is knowing how to do something, wisdom is knowing not to."

knowledge regarding a roll cage in a street car and racing in general is all about calculated risk vs reward in my opinion. I loved driving those cars everywhere…that was my reward…and the risks I took on and off the track were well beyond worrying about supposed "street legality".

Still I would like to know the truth so any links appreciated.

[shawn18]

I have been following this thread the past couple of days and I gotta say , that as awesome as some of these numbers are that are being thrown at us. I just don't know if it warrants the 75k price tag. It seems awesome but can it be raced with the 305's in any sanctioned class? Would the ZL1 be comparable with the same tires? It just makes me wonder what exactly the purpose of the car is...Is it for guys who just wanna go to open track events and run hot laps or is it designed to go and actually race , or both?
My 1LE was 37k OTD..It seems like I can build a better car , if I were looking for a track monster with my car with the 40k I saved on price...Not sure but seems like it.

I think its an awesome car no doubt..I just don't think it warrants the 75k price tag.....Could I afford it..Yeah , probably so. Will I..no probably not..Its just not worth it to me to pay the money for it....And I am sure some people will think " well its just not the car for you" and maybe it's not , but the price doesn't justify the goods in this case. IMO

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Zfatuated

I don't want to re-build a car, I want a turn-key track car. One that is dependable and fast.

You can do that re-build, you seem to know exactly what's needed. How many of these track car builds have you done so that we know you've validated and proven this concept of transforming the ZL1 into a more durable, faster, cheaper track car?

There seems to be several folks who feel as you do, my suggestion is go build what you propose, prove the value proposition, and earn your credibility. Otherwise, the flapping of lips with nothing to show for it is getting mighty tiresome to listen to.



No, "we" do not all know that.

I actually have experience street and track driving Trofeos. In fact I wore through several sets of the original Trofeo before the R's were released. Then I went through several sets of the first Trofeo R's that were released in the US. From what you wrote it obvious you have no idea what you are talking about in regards to this tire. It's is as progressive at the limit as any street tire and probably more so than most. That is the fact from experience.

There is nothing inherent in a square set-up to make it any more of less prone to "losing it".

Tire contact patch is but one of very many variables that affect handling and balance. To say that having a wide front tire will make a car less forgiving at the limit is ridiculous as a blanket statement.

Your insinuation that the tire setup on the Z/28 is dangerous is ludicrous.



Who would make that assumption? I don't recall reading it being thrown about frequently? In fact I've never read it on this forum? So, who is making that assumption? That would be "you".

You are starting up again with this ZL1 comparison, yet anyone who is serious about buying a Z/28 is crystal clear on the difference, and GM has taken great pains to explain the differences. Yet you continue to try and flog the ZL1 as the car to buy?



Dude! WTF? Where do you come up with this crap?

"reign supreme"
"excusive statement of uniqueness"

Who, other than you, is saying this stuff?

Go buy the 'Vette. Go buy the ZL1. Why haven't you already done so?




Here you go again. Cite references from racecar engineering literature supporting your blanket, standalone statement that "A square set up is defo looser than staggered and as such requires more skill to drive fast. It might be faster than staggered, but only in seasoned hands.". We'll wait...

What a crock of crap.



Here we go yet again. I don't know what I would do without your effort to save me from myself? Why would you even think of trying to frame a discussion in this manner? What potential Z/28 owner thinks like that? And how the F would you know it? Because nobody here has posted anything remotely close to what you are portraying as fact.

And again (whew) you try to frame the entire value proposition of the Z/28 as boiling down to a comparison to the ZL1 and three seconds of lap time. Why would you do that?

After reading your posts, I have a theory and it is that there is something other than kindness and goodwill towards man behind the persona you attempt to portray in this forum. I think you are a crafty little troll. I'll let the fullness of time prove this theory right or wrong.

Thanks for your reply. You're right, i don't know how the suspension is tuned on the z28 re the square tire set up. Usually, those set ups are looser: case in point a Vette. Z28 might obviously be different. I stand corrected.

As far as how z28 is being positioned as the "ultimate" track Camaro those are not my words, but somebody else's who suggested the following in THIS thread (not to mention all the media): "what we are trying to do is to bring the Z/28 back to it's original purpose - and that is to find mustangs on a road course and eat them. No - I'm not saying that this car is set for SCCA rules - what I AM saying is that this car is an amazing driving machine - and on a road course it will blow cars costing many times more to kingdom-come."

Foregive me if I interpret this as meaning that no other Camaro is as fast and as such the z28 is worthy of a lofty price. But, as others do, I am free to speculate the zl1 will do just as well (hypothetically perhaps even better?) with equal R comp tires. Does posing such suggestions make me a troll? Does seeking information and clarifications make me a troll? Do we live in free society, or are certain questions verbotten?! Most folks don't know the difference between a street and an R comp tire, or type of brakes, etc. They read a marketing release, salivate and reach for their wallets. Agree that my style might be a bit edgy, but if GM asks me to fork out an equvalent of a zl1 (or a Vette) and a compact sedan for a z28, I would like to know WHY they think it is worth it. If you have an answer, do post it. BTW: since z28 is billed as a "pure" track car, it is lap times I am after as that's what matters at a track.

NB I had a 81 Z28 and it was the best car I've ever owned. I was hoping to get a new one. I am astonished and disappointed by the pricing strategy GM pursued. Z28 has always been an enthusiasts car. It has been absent for such a long time. And now it has been released as a rich and famous museum car. And that's a crying shame. All we can hope for the strategy changes in the next gen.

Regards.

[Blueclyde]

This car will be the fastest "factory" Camaro ever produced. It will deservingly carry the Z/28 monicker. It will be low volume with exotic pieces and lots of engineering time ($$). They said it would be fast and not for everyone. I understand people saying, "I can't justify the price" or something similar. That's totally fine. But really folks, let's stop with the "ZL1 plus...." or "1LE plus...." comments. Those are really irrelevant. This car will cost $75K and there will only be one Z/28. It will not be the fastest track Camaro in the world, but it will be the fastest one that can be purchased directly from GM.

[Col. Brain]

Originally Posted by shawn18

I have been following this thread the past couple of days and I gotta say , that as awesome as some of these numbers are that are being thrown at us. I just don't know if it warrants the 75k price tag. It seems awesome but can it be raced with the 305's in any sanctioned class? Would the ZL1 be comparable with the same tires? It just makes me wonder what exactly the purpose of the car is...Is it for guys who just wanna go to open track events and run hot laps or is it designed to go and actually race , or both?
My 1LE was 37k OTD..It seems like I can build a better car , if I were looking for a track monster with my car with the 40k I saved on price...Not sure but seems like it.

I think its an awesome car no doubt..I just don't think it warrants the 75k price tag.....Could I afford it..Yeah , probably so. Will I..no probably not..Its just not worth it to me to pay the money for it....And I am sure some people will think " well its just not the car for you" and maybe it's not , but the price doesn't justify the goods in this case. IMO

I really think if GM wanted to put the z/28 into class racing - they would have picked a class or two and built the car minus VIN and went at it.

And if you are serious about class racing - buy the camaro you want to race in that class and go from there. Or go the body in white route and build your own.

The COPO is built to several classes depending on what the owner wants to do with it! But because they want to race in the faster stock classes - it required a roll bar (NHRA rules) and some radical HP (that wont pass too many smog tests).

Same should be said with the Z/28. IT IS A STREET CAR!!! Therefore things like roll bars, and radical cam shafts, and no air bags etc can not be used. In todays regulated society it is race car or street car. The factory has to choose. They made the z/28 a street car. So it has to be a street car.

You as the buyer - you can do whatever the hell you want with it. Want to put it in a sanction racing class - that is on you. Buy the parts needed to convert it and go nuts.

I don't want to race wheel to wheel. I just like making hot laps and looking to get back into it. The z/28 hooked me on day one and have held off all summer waiting for THIS car to do exactly that.

I agree with some on here that 75k is steep but not out of reach either.
Think of it this way - this is Chevy's 2014 Z06 with a back seat.

And I repeat - the Cobra R adjusted for inflation would be over 70k today

[shawn18]

Originally Posted by Col. Brain

I really think if GM wanted to put the z/28 into class racing - they would have picked a class or two and built the car minus VIN and went at it.

And if you are serious about class racing - buy the camaro you want to race in that class and go from there. Or go the body in white route and build your own.

The COPO is built to several classes depending on what the owner wants to do with it! But because they want to race in the faster stock classes - it required a roll bar (NHRA rules) and some radical HP (that wont pass too many smog tests).

Same should be said with the Z/28. IT IS A STREET CAR!!! Therefore things like roll bars, and radical cam shafts, and no air bags etc can not be used. In todays regulated society it is race car or street car. The factory has to choose. They made the z/28 a street car. So it has to be a street car.

You as the buyer - you can do whatever the hell you want with it. Want to put it in a sanction racing class - that is on you. Buy the parts needed to convert it and go nuts.

I don't want to race wheel to wheel. I just like making hot laps and looking to get back into it. The z/28 hooked me on day one and have held off all summer waiting for THIS car to do exactly that.

I agree with some on here that 75k is steep but not out of reach either.
Think of it this way - this is Chevy's 2014 Z06 with a back seat.

And I repeat - the Cobra R adjusted for inflation would be over 70k today

I can see your point but roll cages aren't required in some scca classes and this car isn't designed for the drag strip. It is clearly marketed toward road racing , as it should be. I just think it is over priced..thats all. I won't be buying one...for awhile that is. If it were priced a little different then I may have ordered one. 75k to run hot laps is a little unreasonable to me.

[joelster]

If the car came out around $55k-$60k I would have made it happen. That's what I figured it was going to be. I'm not made of money, but I like to treat myself accordingly, and I like to fly the Chevy banner all the time. I've owned 6 Z28's of different generations, and now own a 1LE. I'll probably never own a newer Z/28 again. I agree with shawn18. The parts added don't seem to justify the pricetag. Even if I had some extra coin laying around and could swing the $75k tag easier, I wouldn't pull the trigger. It's like walking into a grocery store and seeing your favorite ice cream on the shelf with a $9.99 price for a half gallon. Yes you can afford it, but you know it ain't worth it. Some of you in here think the price is right in line, myself and a bunch of others don't.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by MBS

Thanks for the correction but if this article is right it sounds like it is a more adjustable than what you are saying excuse me for my ignorance in this subject .......
According to those involved in the Z/28′s development, the unique suspension configuration features what’s called a dynamic suspension spool valve (DSSV) dampening system. The setup allows compression and rebound of the shocks to be dialed in at the factory for optimal performance. For the most part, such a system has been reserved for motor sports vehicles (“real” race cars), but considering the hard-core nature of the new Z/28, it might as well be one.

Compared to a conventional damper that offers only two-way tuning for compression and rebound, a spool-valve damper allows four-way adjustment to precisely tune both compression and rebound settings for high speeds and low speeds. The wider tuning range allowed engineers to dramatically increase the damper stiffness on the Camaro Z/28 without a significant change in ride quality. There’s also significant weight savings seen with the use of DSSV over GM’s proven Magnetic Ride Control (MRC) setup.

What you first need to know is that high and low speeds refer to the speed of the piston inside the shock as the sprung mass - car body - moves around due to acceleration, braking, and cornering (this being "low speed"), and as the suspension reacts to hitting bumps (high speed).

You want enough low speed damping for control of sprung and unsprung mass motions without driving the high speed damping so high that the integrity of your fillings is at risk. Apparently DSSV is more capable than other approaches to shock design as far as providing firm chassis control without feeling like they're filled with cement when you hit a stretch of rough road (IOW, harsh).

This tuning is an ability to separate body control from ride quality - consider it a different way of tweaking the shock's damping curve, all done internally and without driver or other external input.

Just like with most other shocks, tuning those four different regions at the shock design level is via internal valving rather than as an end-user adjustment.

External adjustment capability such as what you find on coilovers and Koni Sport shocks allow you to manually shift all or parts of the damping curve. The more separate adjustments you have, the easier it is to get "lost" in your tuning efforts and end up worse off than if you'd left them all alone.


In the attached .jpg, "low speed" is to the left of the vertical red line. It's about where consensus divides low from high, good enough for illustration here anyway. Below the black line is "bump", rebound is above. The greenish line is what the damping could look like if no attempt at all was made at softening bump harshness. Since I rather like my fillings to stay in my teeth, I really wouldn't want to see a 10 inch/sec bump on this line at all (about 0.25 in meters/sec on the plot), even though the low speed bump damping is marginally poorer than the other settings.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

Why not go for an even better deal? The 1LE is only 2.2 seconds behind the ZL1 and it's $20K less than the ZL1. I'm sure the tires add a good bit, however (my guess) not as much as you'd like.

IIRC, R-comps are worth somewhere between 1 and 2 seconds per minute at autocross over very good summer performance rubber. I'd GUESS closer to 1 sec/min on a big track except for unusually powerful cars that you can roll into the throttle at or above 100 mph and get wheelspin.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Zfatuated

I actually have experience street and track driving Trofeos. In fact I wore through several sets of the original Trofeo before the R's were released. Then I went through several sets of the first Trofeo R's that were released in the US. From what you wrote it obvious you have no idea what you are talking about in regards to this tire. It's is as progressive at the limit as any street tire and probably more so than most. That is the fact from experience.

No offense, but that experience puts you out of the group who will have greater difficulty handling a less understeerish car, this being the group that Chevy still has to cater to.

There is nothing inherent in a square set-up to make it any more of less prone to "losing it".

Are you sure? Again, I'm talking from the point of view of the driver who is accustomed to moderate to heavy understeer, and even that's if he has driven hard enough to where that actually matters (below the 0.3 lat-g or so where most people corner, it doesn't). This isn't about your capabilities and probably not mine either. Handling in the overall sense is one part car, one part road, and one part driver . . . we can control the "road" by being at the track or autocross lot where the pavement is normally in good condition and at worst you know where it isn't, and we can do all manner of things to upgrade the car to make it behave more linearly longer. If we don't tighten the nut behind the wheel, much of what you do with the other two is wasted, and the flip side of "linear longer" is a more sudden trip past the peak-grip slip angle. Progressive to you probably isn't progressive enough for everybody.

Sure, you can tune around a square setup some to make it a little more benign to the less skilled among us, but ultimately if the front grip is about the same as the rear grip and the driver gets too sloppy with the throttle in a corner with ZL1 power, the tail will come around (dare I suggest a "muscle car/drag race" mentality here?). Throttle modulation is an autocross and road course skill. Good winter- and wet-weather drivers with experience in moderately powerful cars have it as well, but that still leaves lots of folks who don't, some of whom will own a ZL1 or a Z/28.


Norm

[newmoon]

There seems to be alot of comparisons brought forward about the Z-28 not being class legal and the 1LE is. My question is while the 1LE did great in the mag tests has it competed in actual sanctioned racing and how did it perform against the Mustang GT & Boss in actual racing? I have no idea just asking. However if the 1LE is not winning why didn't Chevy build something that can? Offering up a factory equipped race car that can't compete in sanctioned racing wasn't a very smart move.

[Zfatuated]

Originally Posted by backtotintops

I had several run ins with johnny law and even some mean ones in upstate NY…they knew we were heading to the glen and never mentioned anything about the race mods…plates checked, reggy and insurance checked and fat ticket for speeding to me. Sparco removable wheel and no airbag. Is this a Nevada thing or maybe I'm totally wrong about NY and they just don't enforce it??? Do you have a DMV link citing this for Nevada or NY?

Yes one would be dumb not to install the thick closed cell roll bar padding on any bar even close to your body. A good prepped car would have this everywhere. It's actually softer for impact than any surface in a stock vehicle.

I removed the driver's side and the passenger's was defeated by a key. Link please regarding the legality of removal of airbags on your own car?

knowledge regarding a roll cage in a street car and racing in general is all about calculated risk vs reward in my opinion. I loved driving those cars everywhere…that was my reward…and the risks I took on and off the track were well beyond worrying about supposed "street legality".

Still I would like to know the truth so any links appreciated.

Sounds like we've had some similar experiences
Airbag requirements and cage (il)legality are Federal (therefore cover all states) and administered by DOT/NHTSA. In addition to that, if a driver ever filed an insurance claim (street crash) involving a full cage car and/or with disabled air bags, they have really opened a can of worms (call your insurance agent and ask). I would urge anyone considering installing a full cage or disabling their airbags in a street legal/driven car to have a discussion with their local Law Enforcement/DMV and insurance company and form their own decision as to whether it's something they still want to do. The consequences could be life changing and not in a positive way

My original intention of discussing this, gone somewhat astray :-) was to point out the difference between a race car such as a BOSS 302S/R (subject to some sort of classifications from a specific race sanctioning body) and a street-legal, street driven track oriented car (the Z/28) to which the red herring "not sanctioned" BS has been applied. OE manufacturers cannot by law sell street legal cars without airbags or with full cages. Ergo, a car without a cage cannot be door-to-door raced and is not a race car (it can be time-trialed or HPDE'd).

Adding another point to the mix- race cars are generally required to use a halo-seat which controls the lateral movement of the head in a crash, helping to avoid head/neck injuries during lateral impacts. Halo seats are highly restrictive of side vision and are also not federally street legal. Another fact that reinforces that the Z/28 is not a "race" car.

[35th02ss]

Originally Posted by Wizard1183

Youre only paying the it's uniqueness and because its a limited production car named "Z/28." Thats all. Take a 1LE, strip it, and spend $25-30k on it using Z/28 parts ect and 9/10 you could spank the car around a track.

And dont say you wont be able to get Z parts. They made the car, ppl will need to buy every part the car consists of if they wish. So tires, rims, aerodynamics, brakes, shocks ect can be purchased. (In the future of course) Though Im sure there will be a premium on the parts, you'll still be able to purchase them.

You will be able too. And it's going to cost more than 25k-30k.

[35th02ss]

Originally Posted by i2disturbedSS

Still a few pages behind but look at the corvette in 2006. Comparing the Camaro now yes two different cars but base price for a corvette was around 43k, a Z06 was 65k. I was in HS when that debut but don't think anyone was arguing about the price. Then the Z51 package for the Corvette came for $1700. Still the corvette fans knew if they wanted a LS7 - hand built limited production engine - then they pay the premium or a Z06. You are asking why the mark up compare it to history with the corvette.
...

I still think this price is fair. This 2014 Z/28 is a machine which only a few will enjoy. But other "old skool" ppl like to think they are entitled to a car like this.

In 2010 I knew a Z/28 was coming - just was a matter of time because of the economy. Dealers told me no they won't. But just told them just wait. Since I'm young and more custom to the 4th gen fbody I thought the Z/28 will be the entry level performance without the lux. A lil bird later said it will be supercharged! Bad ass I thought. I want one. However it will be above the Super Sport - no big deal cuz I knew most of the history of the Camaro. Just thought this will confuse ppl like in the 2000s when "SS" was on everything.

Turn out to be the supercharge Z/28 was the ZL1 with MRC-wow! Well no more Z/28...wrong back to drawing board. Fast forward to 2013 and Z/28 pricing was in the mix. Around 65k I thought. January 2014 and 75k was the official price. Damn! More then I though but still FAIR. Out of my reach - hell yeah it is! Still I love it and not bash it. For it is the ultimate Camaro to date. A Camaro for everybody. Something to strive for. Maybe taking parts from here and there and putting a twist on your own Camaro.

To the the ppl who disagree that's ok - but look at the bigger picture. There could be no Camaro.(just like the firebird , just gone. Which was my first and favorite out of the two). So don't disrespect but respect to disagree and keep the brotherhood and remember Camaro

...now back to work for me and I will keep reading cuz i like to hear the opinions and comments of others.

Very well said