Volt potentially mechanically driven

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by a_Username

If your definitions are correct, then why did GM call it an EV? But I would like to question that definition of a parallel hybrid. The way you worded it seems as if a car could be gasoline only, i.e. with no other power source besides gasoline, and still be called a parallel hybrid by that definition; this is unless this definition counts the addition of a simple battery found in every car as the other power source.

A parallel hybrid is a vehicle which will feed the transmission from the electrical source AND the gasoline source at the same time. The Volt does this at 70 mph.

A series hybrid is when the gasoline engine (generator) must send it's energy through the electrical system to get to the transmission.

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by Hylton

A parallel hybrid is a vehicle which will feed the transmission from the electrical source AND the gasoline source at the same time. The Volt does this at 70 mph.

A series hybrid is when the gasoline engine (generator) must send it's energy through the electrical system to get to the transmission.

You give a much better and much more workable definition. Given these definitions...

It acts as an EV until it hits 70, where it responds by acting as a parallel hybrid. It seems to me that it is mainly an EV, until the situation arises where it must act as a parallel hybrid to guarantee efficiency and capability. Honestly, when accounting for all this, it looks as if GM's saying that it is a "Extended-Range EV" is the most appropriate.

[BigRigMike]

Originally Posted by Hylton

You sound like you are fine with the ambiguity. Can we not be a tad more honest than Toyota? That's what we are really talking about, not how much better the Volt is with every other Hybrid out there - you're not going to find anyone disagreeing with that point.

If the Volt was a true EV then I should be able to move the "generator" to the trunk, run longer wires to all the original connections and it should work exactly as it does now. Something tells me I can't do that and expect the same performance when traveling over 70 mph.

If you had a 200 mile extension cord and plugged the Volt in you could drive 200 miles without using gas at 101mph.

I think were GM saved some complexity and money is that the small motor/generator is connected to the ring gear. The ICE is also connected to the ring so when the Volt needs to create electricity the ICE fires up and spins the ring gear thus spinning the motor/generator.

The "problem" is the ring gear has to spin above 70 mph because of gearing.

When the battery is full the motor/generator spins the gear and ICE stays off all the way up to 101mph. When the battery is "depleted" the ICE is running and spinning the ring gear already to provide electricity. Therefore if the battery is "depleted" and you are traveling above 70 mph the ICE is turning the ring gear which is creating electricity for the traction motor and it is then replacing the torque that would be applied by the motor/generator.

You could move the ICE to the trunk but then you would need another generator to produce electricity because using a planetary gear design you need to 2 electric motors or else you would have a one speed transmission.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by a_Username

If your definitions are correct, then why did GM call it an EV? But I would like to question that definition of a parallel hybrid. The way you worded it seems as if a car could be gasoline only, i.e. with no other power source besides gasoline, and still be called a parallel hybrid by that definition; this is unless this definition counts the addition of a simple battery found in every car as the other power source.

You're right, its a bad working definition. Let me try again

If the gas engine and the electric motors work together to power the wheels (gas+electric), its a parallel hybrid. If the gas engine is there to power a generator to power the electric motor (and not the wheels) its a series hybrid. The names work well if you understand what parallel and series electric circuits are, and are possibly meaningless if you don't. I've drawn up a diagram for each. Hopefully, its clearer than my words.

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by a_Username

You give a much better and much more workable definition. Given these definitions...

It acts as an EV until it hits 70, where it responds by acting as a parallel hybrid. It seems to me that it is mainly an EV, until the situation arises where it must act as a parallel hybrid to guarantee efficiency and capability. Honestly, when accounting for all this, it looks as if GM's saying that it is a "Extended-Range EV" is the most appropriate.

Yes, I agree. Many may say "big deal" but if you've followed the whole EV story since the "70s, it all matters.

Everyone wants to see a true EV that can go 100 miles without a charge. The Volt is a step towards that goal.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by DevilKnightFalcon

http://jalopnik.com/5661051/how-gm-l...e-electric-car

http://jalopnik.com/5661817/chevy-vo...and-statistics

I would like to believe that the Volt is technically superior however the bottom line is it is still just a hybrid and if these early rumors and reports are true that the car is only getting around 40mpg in the city then it is not even a very good hybrid. With that said I am waiting on official reviews before making final judgement but honestly if this car gets anything less than 80mpg I will be quite disappointed given all the hype (and claimed 230mpg)

First everyone is simply forgetting about the MISSION. The Volt was intended to be an Electric Vehicle that had the abilty to eliminate the single biggest concern (and justifiably so) for most potential EV customers, RANGE ANXIETY. That was the MISSION. Not to be an EV, not to be a Hybrid.

So in ICE mode, it is not optimized for FE. It's an 85 HP engine. It is efficient or what it does, but as it DOES NOT PROVIDE PRIMARY PROPULSION (sorry that was for clarity not yelling) it is barely as efficient as a much lighter Cruze with the same engine with a Turbo.

Originally Posted by derklug

The Volt was originally called a plug-in hybrid, which is probably how the engineers talked about it, but then the marketing department got ahold of it and it became an EV. Now the writers are screaming because GM did something logical to aid performance but, in effect, making the car not a true EV. I agree that the parsing of words is designed more to rain on the Volt's parade and give Nissan ammo for selling it's glorified golf cart.

Not sure what early meetings you were in, but it was always something more......either EREV or REEV in the early going.

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Exactly. Some are now drawing comparisons between this and the Prius PHEV, and if GM had announced details about the Volt's drivetrain prior to it being patented, Toyota could've slipped a little something extra into the Prius PHEV to make it perform just as well as the Volt.

The simple answer is even the Prius PHEV can NOT due what the Volt does. A PHEV is simply a Hybrid with a bigger battery and an on board charger. It has increased capacity for speed, grade, acceleration and load compared to the normal hybrid. But it simply doesn't have the battery to go 70 mph or accelerate WOT without the ICE. The Volt can do all of these things as for the first 40 miles it is a full functioning EV.

Originally Posted by a_Username

This really depends on how you define a hybrid. If you call a hybrid a vehicle that is powered, rather directly or indirectly, by two different sources (gas/electric) then the Volt is a hybrid. However, if you believe there must be a direct link between the gasoline engine (without the middleman that the generator is) and the wheels then this is an EV.

I for one do not feel like I've been lied to at all. To me, GM simply added a hybrid "safeguard" to guarantee capability and efficiency. IMO, I'd rather have this safeguard than the pride of knowing I have an EV, defined by very broad criteria I might add, while I'm stranded on the side of the road.

Originally Posted by DGthe3

There are 2 there are two types of hybrid, series and parallel. If you can run gas only, electric only, or gas and electric you have a parallel hybrid. If you can run electric only, but use the gas engine to power the electric motors, its a series hybrid. Neither system has a maximum or minumum limit on electric only range before using the gas engine. Some parallel hybrids don't have an extra battery, they just use the regular battery under the hood. Meanwhile there are series hybrids that don't have a battery either, the limited storage requirements are taken care of with capacitors. At the other end of the spectrum, you have the plug in Prius and the Volt which can each go for miles and miles electrically, but in theory may never need gasoline. But its still a hybrid drivetrain.

The Volt is a hybrid. Supposedly, it was to be a series hybrid but it looks like it has a parallel capability too. Either way, its a hybrid and not an EV.

You and I had this discussion before. When the battery is depleted (30% I think) it is a Hybrid. With a fully charged battery it is an EV. The customer can choose to make it an EV and still have a fully functional vehicle up to 101 mph. A hybrid simply can't do that. Not near enough battery.

Originally Posted by a_Username

If your definitions are correct, then why did GM call it an EV? But I would like to question that definition of a parallel hybrid. The way you worded it seems as if a car could be gasoline only, i.e. with no other power source besides gasoline, and still be called a parallel hybrid by that definition; this is unless this definition counts the addition of a simple battery found in every car as the other power source.

As I said, it's an EV if your battery has 30% charge left. When it doesn't it operates as a Hybrid.

Originally Posted by Hylton

You sound like you are fine with the ambiguity. Can we not be a tad more honest than Toyota? That's what we are really talking about, not how much better the Volt is with every other Hybrid out there - you're not going to find anyone disagreeing with that point.

If the Volt was a true EV then I should be able to move the "generator" to the trunk, run longer wires to all the original connections and it should work exactly as it does now. Something tells me I can't do that and expect the same performance when traveling over 70 mph.

Actually you can. Don't ask me how I know but, you can simply remove the engine and plug the vehicle in and suffer range anxiety like the leaf owners will. But I believe the Leaf is carrying a bigger battery and is smaller and lighter enabling the 100 mile claim. But back to the mission, the ICE is what enables the customer to overcome that.

Originally Posted by Hylton

A parallel hybrid is a vehicle which will feed the transmission from the electrical source AND the gasoline source at the same time. The Volt does this at 70 mph.

A series hybrid is when the gasoline engine (generator) must send it's energy through the electrical system to get to the transmission.

When you are in Charge Sustaining mode. Otherwise the engine isn't on at 70 mph. Or the customer can select "Mountain Mode" to accomplish the same thing on the worst grade in North America. But even then the customer has to choose that. If they want to remain an EV they can climb the grade at the legal minimum speed.

Originally Posted by a_Username

You give a much better and much more workable definition. Given these definitions...

It acts as an EV until it hits 70, where it responds by acting as a parallel hybrid. It seems to me that it is mainly an EV, until the situation arises where it must act as a parallel hybrid to guarantee efficiency and capability. Honestly, when accounting for all this, it looks as if GM's saying that it is a "Extended-Range EV" is the most appropriate.

GM was probably always at risk. That is why Extended Range Electric Vehicle was the closest to the MISSION.

Originally Posted by Hylton

Yes, I agree. Many may say "big deal" but if you've followed the whole EV story since the "70s, it all matters.

Everyone wants to see a true EV that can go 100 miles without a charge. The Volt is a step towards that goal.

That is the magic number, 100. But down the road, batteries will have to be cheaper (big time), lighter (Volt battery is 450 pounds give or take) and smaller (a huge T shape that eliminates the middle seating position in the back seat) and less susceptible to the environment. Hot and cold are devastating to range.

But just here is an interesting thing we don't talk about......infrastructure. At the tech center for the Volt CTF there is a row of "Volt Only Parking" spots with chargers. You can now drive 25 to 50 miles one way, charge the vehicle at work and then drive the 25 to 50 home. Infrastructure just helped double the EV range and double the customers pay back. How many people would have the luxury of charging conveniently in their parking space at work? Not many yet. And with Quick Charging on the horizon, you can reduce the charge time from many hours to under an hour. But that all requires somebody to invest $$$$$.

[Hylton]

Good information Number 3. Thank you!

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Hylton

Good information Number 3. Thank you!

Technology makes for good discussion especially when it's GM technology.

[derklug]

Sorry, 3, never was in a meeting, but that was what the GM guys at the Detroit Auto show were calling it the first year that a prototype was displayed. They were saying you could drive it off of the electric all week, and then use it like a hybrid on the weekends. I just assumed that marketing types were more involved with the final designation than the engineering types.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by derklug

Sorry, 3, never was in a meeting, but that was what the GM guys at the Detroit Auto show were calling it the first year that a prototype was displayed. They were saying you could drive it off of the electric all week, and then use it like a hybrid on the weekends. I just assumed that marketing types were more involved with the final designation than the engineering types.

Sorry Derklug no need to apologize. I realize I came off as an &$;/() and that wasn't my intent.

From the beginning as an engineering program the Volt was considered a game changer not a hybrid. Internally it had a name indicating the flexible nature of the powertrain but it was always considered an EV first and foremost. The plus or game changing aspect was the eliminate of range anxiety. GM knew this from the EV1 and many other customer clinics and surveys.

What probably happened was marketing trying to keep up with the Volt technology rather than the other way around.

[gml1998]

Originally Posted by 20Camaro11

thanks for the info...seems like there is not much here besides a few journalists (most likely feeding off each others own ignorance) creating some news.

Say it isn't so. lol

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

That's....different. It will be interesting to see how GM responds.

On the flip side....how often do you plan to go above 70mph in the Volt? This "revelation", if true...doesn't matter.

I'm always going between 70 and 80 on the turnpike so the system would be switching back and forth quite often if it is under my control and not on cruise. Hopefully the change back and forth is smooth and not so taxing on the system..

Originally Posted by Number 3

And with Quick Charging on the horizon, you can reduce the charge time from many hours to under an hour. But that all requires somebody to invest $$$$$.

This is not good enough for me at this point to take the plunge. Even a 30 minute charge is not as quick as simply filling up your tank at any gas station. I'll have to wait until the technology improves before I buy one of these over any gasoline powered vehicle. I also don't like the risks of spontaneous battery explosions which seem to occur with cell phone lithium ion battery packs. A much larger one inside a car can spell trouble if there is any defect.

[nick at night]

Originally Posted by Supermans

I'm always going between 70 and 80 on the turnpike so the system would be switching back and forth quite often if it is under my control and not on cruise. Hopefully the change back and forth is smooth and not so taxing on the system..



This is not good enough for me at this point to take the plunge. Even a 30 minute charge is not as quick as simply filling up your tank at any gas station. I'll have to wait until the technology improves before I buy one of these over any gasoline powered vehicle. I also don't like the risks of spontaneous battery explosions which seem to occur with cell phone lithium ion battery packs. A much larger one inside a car can spell trouble if there is any defect.

That's why the gas engine is on board.... to keep you from HAVING to charge it up at work. If you need to go further than 40 miles, stop at a gas station as you normally would. And, no disrespect, but comparing a cell phone battery to the battery in the volt is kind of silly. I've yet to hear any case where the battery in a hybrid has inexplicably spontaneously combusted.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Supermans

This is not good enough for me at this point to take the plunge. Even a 30 minute charge is not as quick as simply filling up your tank at any gas station. I'll have to wait until the technology improves before I buy one of these over any gasoline powered vehicle. I also don't like the risks of spontaneous battery explosions which seem to occur with cell phone lithium ion battery packs. A much larger one inside a car can spell trouble if there is any defect.

An EV isn't for everyone. Today you have to have the following mindset: I'm willing to pay more and put up with more inconvenience in order to NOT use gasoline.

It will be a while before it is as convenient as gasoline. Keep in mind, gasoline is basically the cheapest form of energy that can be easily transported to your corner gas station. If there were a cheaper and easier way to supply energy for your personal transportation needs, we'd be using it. That is unless you believe in oil company conspiracies

So your situation is where most people are. Arguably that is why the government is paying $7,500 to entice you and I to consider that inconvenience more worthwhile.

And that is what the Volt can do, allow you the flexibility to choose the most convenient form of energy. If you have access to the infrastructure you can use electric. If you want to drive on vacation you can choose gas.