Chevy called me, wow

[espo19047]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

Who said I'm trying to "win" anything? What's wrong with contributing ideas and proposing solutions? Why is everything with some people a "debate"?

When you are making a point and then start to insult people by using terms like "high pressure scumbags" it takes away your credibility. When people resort to name calling it is a sign of defeat.

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

The ones that will stay open are probalbly going to be the high-pressure scumbags.

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by DeathChill

Citing the fact they've been using this method for the past 100 years only shows how archaic it is. Do you think music and media companies should continue trying to avoid the Internet?

No, it's not the problem that some dealers mark it up at the beginning. It's the whole damn experience. It's awful. The system in place currently is terrible and really needs to be completely revamped.

I mean, honestly, don't you think the dealers had something to do with GM failing? When you have to go into somewhere to GIVE A COMPANY MONEY and you feel like you've got to be on guard the whole time you've got a problem.

I'm not saying every single dealer is bad, but I'm saying the whole system is setup wrong that allows the bad dealers to continue doing whatever they please.

I know it's never going to happen but it is an interesting thought. Think of how amazing it would be to walk into a dealership and buy or order the car you want without spending a week trying to haggle and making sure you're not getting shafted. Being able to order ANY car and get it in a timely manner, none of this useless allocation stuff that just results in people who want to order being turned away. Like I said, when you want to give a company your money and they're saying "Well, we have no idea when we're going to build it because it's not within the dealer's allocation! We'll sure teach you for going with a dealer who sold all the cars we want to give him!" I don't know of any other business that would turn away sold orders in this manner.

Your final point is fine for people who really want a specific car but it sure as hell doesn't help people who aren't brand loyal or looking for a specific car. My girlfriend was treated poorly at a Chevy dealership and she had no interest in going back to ANY Chevy dealership. She would be happier to go get a Honda Civic and be done without it.

That about sums it up.

Nominated for BEST POST EVER!

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by espo19047

I think people should substitute opinions with name calling. When you are making a point and then start to insult people by using terms like "high pressure scumbags" it takes away your credibility.

So if I'm talking about a guy who was seen purse-snatching from an elderly lady and I refer to him as a "lowlife cretin" in a public place then suddenly EVERY innocent guy in the area is going to dogpile me because somehow I implicated them because they just so happen to be males too?

Lighten up... if you're NOT a high pressure scumbag then I wasn't talking about you. If you are one then your hypersensitivity to my comment could be construed as guilt.

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

With all due respect, there's something seriously wrong with this statement. If what you say is true then the people at Dell Computers in theory should have been put behind bars years ago.

If they can do it, so can you!

(Not to mention the fact that your new owners apparently can "trump" any state laws that they want to at any time for any reason!)

Yes, I'm being sarcastic but I'm tired of hearing things are impossible when other people do them.

when did DELL start manufacturing and selling AUTOMOBILES??????

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by camaro4life65

Im In San Jose, CA and 3 chevy dealerships have closed in last 2 years!!! 3 months ago they were calling/emailing me like crazt to buy a car from them.....However the camaros are finnally comming in and these f,,k heads jacked up the price 10k over sticker and if you dont want to pay they are ass holes and say supply in demand....so much for customer service any longer with chevy...

I drive out of State before I pay over invoice...this is crazy then they wonder why people buy toyotas.....Im all for AMerican cars but this is jacked up....

Chyrsler did this when the 300 came out and looked what happend to the,????

OK -- slow down --

If you think that dealers only mark up American Cars, you're very much mistaken.........any car that's in short supply is most likely going to get marked up - and let me go on record ONCE AGAIN and say that I do NOT agree with dealers doing this.....

As to Chrysler marking up the Chrysler 300 -- HUGELY successful for the first couple of years......HUGELY......the problem is that it's getting a bit 'long in the tooth'

Go try to buy a Ferrari - I don't care if you're Bill Gates -- can't be done......you must first establish a 'relationship' with a dealer. I don't agree with that either - -but you shouldn't make a statement like:

QUOTE:
...this is crazy then they wonder why people buy toyotas.....Im all for AMerican cars but this is jacked up....

..as it's misleading.

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

Umm.... doesn't everyone realize Tesla makes cars?

How do they sell them direct?

I bet you will find if youy read the laws that there's a way around this. Probably something along the lines of: "If you have a franchise in a state you cannot dictate this and that... blah blah blah. If you do not have franchises then you can sell direct."

The real answer is to do away with all franchises, sell direct, and establish the existing dealers as "service centers" and NOT franchises.

SIMPLE.

Now, get to work!

actually, GM does not have Franchises, per se -- we have 'sales and service agreements' --

If it's SIMPLE -- then go change the law!

Go ahead!

If you think it's that simple, you are being delusional.

We started awarding Sales and Service Agreements shortly after GM was formed- each state over the years has passed it's own motor vehicle laws and auto franchise laws --

I guess I cannot understand WHY you think GM wouldn't sell direct in a HEART BEAT if it was 'simple' as you state.

Ladies and Gentlemen:

I have been on this site and many others for many years -- I do not intentionally lie. If I did, I'd be run off of this (and other) sites.


PAY ATTENTION:


each state has its motor vehicle franchise laws -- each state makes it very clear that the manufacturer CANNOT SELL directly to the public. YOU don't like it and I don't like it -- but that's the law. if you don't like it -- contact your state legislators and start a campaign to have the laws overturned in the state in which you reside!!!!

[DeathChill]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

OK -- slow down --

If you think that dealers only mark up American Cars, you're very much mistaken.........any car that's in short supply is most likely going to get marked up - and let me go on record ONCE AGAIN and say that I do NOT agree with dealers doing this.....

As to Chrysler marking up the Chrysler 300 -- HUGELY successful for the first couple of years......HUGELY......the problem is that it's getting a bit 'long in the tooth'

Go try to buy a Ferrari - I don't care if you're Bill Gates -- can't be done......you must first establish a 'relationship' with a dealer. I don't agree with that either - -but you shouldn't make a statement like:

QUOTE:
...this is crazy then they wonder why people buy toyotas.....Im all for AMerican cars but this is jacked up....

..as it's misleading.

Definitely agree here. I think that any dealer, regardless of the company they sell for, has or will mark up cars.

I don't know about the Ferrari aspect though. I can go and buy one off a dealership lot in Vancouver if I had the money for it.

However, Fbodfather, I think you missed the post where Tesla directly sells their cars. The difference is that Tesla didn't create any franchised dealerships so they avoided the whole mess. What I was talking about was if every dealership had its franchise pulled/destroyed (I know it'd never happen, but theoretically it could).

EDIT: Ah you beat my post before I even posted it! AHHHHHH!

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by DeathChill

Definitely agree here. I think that any dealer, regardless of the company they sell for, has or will mark up cars.

I don't know about the Ferrari aspect though. I can go and buy one off a dealership lot in Vancouver if I had the money for it.

However, Fbodfather, I think you missed the post where Tesla directly sells their cars. The difference is that Tesla didn't create any franchised dealerships so they avoided the whole mess. What I was talking about was if every dealership had its franchise pulled/destroyed (I know it'd never happen, but theoretically it could).

Tesla has been in business for how long?

I'm here to tell you that it's only a matter of time before states go after them --

[fbodfather]

By the way -

I need to say this:

If you think dealers are crooks -- you should see what the public will pull........

If I had a nickel for every customer that had their car or truck appraised for trade -- and THEN pulled the 'new' tires off of it -- or pulled the custom stereo out - or removed add-on accessories......

The point is this:

NOT ALL DEALERS ARE CROOKS -- The MAJORITY are very respected business people who do incredible amounts of charity in their communities.....




Don't believe everything you read -- esp. if you don't know who's typing it!

[DeathChill]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

Tesla has been in business for how long?

I'm here to tell you that it's only a matter of time before states go after them --

I can't imagine they'd be getting away with it if it was illegal. Especially with all of the press they get. That's a bit of an absurd thing to say. It's probably just no one is lining the pockets of any politicians to stop Tesla from doing it.

However, the article does state that the way the law works is that if a franchised dealer exists in the state then the company can't sell there. If there's no franchised dealer then they can sell direct. However, that would obviously require shutting down every dealer and that is kind of a bad thing to do all at once, or at all.

[DeathChill]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

By the way -

I need to say this:

If you think dealers are crooks -- you should see what the public will pull........

If I had a nickel for every customer that had their car or truck appraised for trade -- and THEN pulled the 'new' tires off of it -- or pulled the custom stereo out - or removed add-on accessories......

The point is this:

NOT ALL DEALERS ARE CROOKS -- The MAJORITY are very respected business people who do incredible amounts of charity in their communities.....




Don't believe everything you read -- esp. if you don't know who's typing it!

There's crooks on both sides, that's for sure. However, there's still far too many dealers who are what we'd consider crooks. Unfortunately that gives ALL dealers a bad name, regardless of whether or not they are honest.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

Great idea -- now all you have to do is travel to all 50 states and get each legislature to change their individual franchise laws! The franchise laws in all 50 states strictly prohibit the manufacturer from selling directly to the customer.

Don't like it? Call your state legislators!!!


Ladies and Gentlemen:

This subject comes up every day on the internet --

IT IS ILLEGAL FOR GM/FORD/CHRYSLER/HONDA/TOYOTA -- or any other manufacturer to tell a dealer what he or she can sell a car for.

There are only TWO instances where we can 'set' a price -

1. MSRP (mfgr. suggested retail price)
2. Special "suggested lease payment" (and there are all kinds of disclosures when that happens...)

That's it.

If the dealer wants to sell a $30,000 Camaro for one penny -- we can do nothing about it. If he wants to sell it for $3 million -- we can do nothing about it.

We want them to sell for MSRP or below -- but we can do NOTHING

Let me repeat that....

NOTHING .....

....about a dealer who wants to mark their vehicles up.

No -- we cannot 'slow down' or 'refuse' shipments. If you attempt that -- and are convicted in a court of law, you can go to jail. (ask Honda)

There are 3,900 Chevrolet dealers in the United States --

JUST SAY NO if someone asks over MSRP.


NOW - that said -- you DO realize that any car that's 'scarce' tends to get marked up -- right? Further, it appears that there is a 'state' on the west coast where dealers tend to mark every car up over MSRP........


......JUST SAY NO!

If you want to be the very first on the block to have the newest toy - most likely you're going to pay for that privilege -- it's called the "Law of Supply and Demand"

When demand outstrips supply -- prices rise.

When supply outstrips demand -- prices fall......



Lecture over!

I wanted to reiterate a very important point in this post. The theme is that democracy places the power of government in the people; capitalism also places that power with the people, often called the market. Buyers control the market based on what they buy. What they buy leads to improved future products in dominant categories, and people get what they want because it makes companies money.

In other words, don't make unnecessary sacrifices. You may want a Camaro with a HUD, but that won't sell unless the Camaros without a HUD sells. That is a necessary sacrifice. Price, however, is not a necessary sacrifice. Pay the market price. The dealer will not tell this price to you, but I can assure you that retail tends to be on the high end of the market for any car at this juncture.

Those of you with terrible math skills are asking, "How is the market price set?" Primarily, it is never set in stone. It changes. Secondly, it changes based on previous or current sale prices of a product. If someone sells a product for $25 and someone else sells the product for $15, then the mean of these prices—add them, then divide by the total—is $20. The mean of all sales is the market price. Your sale represents a numerical value that impacts the rest of us. If you pay more, then future buyers may have to pay more. If you stick to the cheapest possible price, then you keep the rest of us in that price range. As a community, Camaro5 members should be sticking to MSRP as a maximum price for the Camaro. Paying more is unnecessary for a car that does not have limited production, competes with cars that are all over the place, and represents an opportunity to promote and sell more Chevrolets, which keeps GM healthy.

If you pay above the market price, then you represent one of the many idiots who foolishly cater towards the dealers, who are also idiots. You make it impossible for those of us who are already stretching our budgets to ever get our dream cars, and you make lots of enemies. Threads will be posted about you, and I will respond that you "are an idiot," and I will tell mean stories about how stupid you are. Enough dealers have suffered this fate that you don't need to be added to the list.

[quickdraw]

Originally Posted by DeathChill

Citing the fact they've been using this method for the past 100 years only shows how archaic it is.

No, it's not the problem that some dealers mark it up at the beginning. It's the whole damn experience. It's awful. The system in place currently is terrible and really needs to be completely revamped.

I'm not saying every single dealer is bad, but I'm saying the whole system is setup wrong that allows the bad dealers to continue doing whatever they please.

I know it's never going to happen but it is an interesting thought. Think of how amazing it would be to walk into a dealership and buy or order the car you want without spending a week trying to haggle and making sure you're not getting shafted.

Being able to order ANY car and get it in a timely manner, none of this useless allocation stuff that just results in people who want to order being turned away. Like I said, when you want to give a company your money and they're saying "Well, we have no idea when we're going to build it because it's not within the dealer's allocation! We'll sure teach you for going with a dealer who sold all the cars we want to give him!" I don't know of any other business that would turn away sold orders in this manner.

My girlfriend was treated poorly at a Chevy dealership and she had no interest in going back to ANY Chevy dealership. She would be happier to go get a Honda Civic and be done with it.

I never said anything about the sytstem I said that it would be insane for them to scrap a maketing network that they have been building for 100 years. And GM doesn't own these dealerships, they are independant.

It is pretty easy to tell other people what to do with their money to suit your desires without ever having to take responsibility for your decisions. It's pretty easy to spend other people's money.

As far not being able to get a car. If you could please send your magic wand to GM I'm sure that they would love to waive it, on your behaf, and make 15,000 cars appear out of thin air. Maybe they just should have announced production starting in July while secretly building them from March on and then come July....Poof they magically appear.

Let your girlfriend know that she is part of a very large club, The "Who the hell does that car saleman think I am, an idiot?" club. Anyone who has ever tried to buy a car has probably joined that club. It is not exclusive to any manufacturer, is is all encompassing. That's why there have been jokes about used car salesman for decades. That doesn't mean that all dealers are crooks, many are honest hard working businessman, which we seem to agree with based on your statements below...vvvvvv....

Originally Posted by DeathChill

There's crooks on both sides, that's for sure. However, there's still far too many dealers who are what we'd consider crooks. Unfortunately that gives ALL dealers a bad name, regardless of whether or not they are honest.

[QUOTE=DeathChill;454056]Definitely agree here. I think that any dealer, regardless of the company they sell for, has or will mark up cars.

However, Fbodfather, I think you missed the post where Tesla directly sells their cars. The difference is that Tesla didn't create any franchised dealerships so they avoided the whole mess. What I was talking about was if every dealership had its franchise pulled/destroyed (I know it'd never happen, but theoretically it could).

Originally Posted by DeathChill

However, the article does state that the way the law works is that if a franchised dealer exists in the state then the company can't sell there. If there's no franchised dealer then they can sell direct. However, that would obviously require shutting down every dealer and that is kind of a bad thing to do all at once, or at all.

As far as Tesla is concerned. It isn't near the same thing when you are comparing a company that is less than 10 years old with one small factory in one state with virtually no marketing network, to a multi billion dollar company on, 4 or 5 continents that has been open and operating for over 100 years. I'm quite sure you would have wondered why the crew of the Exxon Valdez couldn't have just made a quick turn or gone right over the sand bar like you do on the weekends in your fishing boat.

The biggest challenge right now is that 10,000 people are waiting for their cars and in the past they would just wait quietly with the small amout of information they got from their dealers until they got their phone call. But now with this "new technology" of the internet and "forums" we see every spy photo and hear everyone speculate about what is happening, should be happening or has already happened. Then everyone can get together and pitch their bitch about what is wrong and right with what they just heard. That OK, it's a forum. Just don't take yourself or anyone else too seriously. A few months from now there will only be 2 groups of people, #1 happy Camaro owners driving and modding their new rides, #2 people that don't drive Camaros telling you what is wrong with you for buying one and why their cars are better. I can live with that.

[DeathChill]

Originally Posted by quickdraw

I never said anything about the sytstem I said that it would be insane for them to scrap a maketing network that they have been building for 100 years. And GM doesn't own these dealerships, they are independant.

It is pretty easy to tell other people what to do with their money to suit your desires without ever having to take responsibility for your decisions. It's pretty easy to spend other people's money.

As far not being able to get a car. If you could please send your magic wand to GM I'm sure that they would love to waive it, on your behaf, and make 15,000 cars appear out of thin air. Maybe they just should have announced production starting in July while secretly building them from March on and then come July....Poof they magically appear.

Let your girlfriend know that she is part of a very large club, The "Who the hell does that car saleman think I am, an idiot?" club. Anyone who has ever tried to buy a car has probably joined that club. It is not exclusive to any manufacturer, is is all encompassing. That's why there have been jokes about used car salesman for decades. That doesn't mean that all dealers are crooks, many are honest hard working businessman, which we seem to agree with based on your statements below...vvvvvv....

I never said this was at all easy, nor did I say that it was ever going to happen.

I'm not talking about getting your car tomorrow because you ordered today. I'm talking about ordering a car and six months down the road (when there is no backlog) not getting a car at all because it's not in your dealer's allocation.

Talk to the Challenger guys and see what they say: tons of 'em ordered cars from dealers when there was no line for the Challenger (well of course there's always some on order, but nothing like 15k) and waited over six months to a year for it to even start being produced because the dealer used up their allocation. I'm talking about the '09's, not the '08's which were limited.

Once again, I NEVER said that it was exclusive to one manufacturer, but why the hell should the system continue in place just because the other guy's still doing it?

As far as Tesla is concerned. It isn't near the same thing when you are comparing a company that is less than 10 years old with one small factory in one state with virtually no marketing network, to a multi billion dollar company on, 4 or 5 continents that has been open and operating for over 100 years. I'm quite sure you would have wondered why the crew of the Exxon Valdez couldn't have just made a quick turn or gone right over the sand bar like you do on the weekends in your fishing boat.

I know that it is not the same thing, but that's because Tesla has had the good fortune of seeing how terrible the current system is.

I never said this was ever going to happen, but man would it change the sales system. I know it'd be a huge undertaking but honestly, do you think that the current system is working out great for GM? I sure don't.

The biggest challenge right now is that 10,000 people are waiting for their cars and in the past they would just wait quietly with the small amout of information they got from their dealers until they got their phone call. But now with this "new technology" of the internet and "forums" we see every spy photo and hear everyone speculate about what is happening, should be happening or has already happened. Then everyone can get together and pitch their bitch about what is wrong and right with what they just heard. That OK, it's a forum. Just don't take yourself or anyone else too seriously. A few months from now there will only be 2 groups of people, #1 happy Camaro owners driving and modding their new rides, #2 people that don't drive Camaros telling you what is wrong with you for buying one and why their cars are better. I can live with that.

Yes, the problem is that times have changed and technologies have advanced while GM's selling system has not. I can't fault GM for not being able to see into the future and see how it'd all work out.

I also can't fault GM for not selling online because the dealers line the pockets of politicians to ensure they don't have to compete with GM/Chrysler/Ford.