Z/28 Is Nothing Without Trofeo R Tires! (SARCASM)

[stand-al0ne]

This sums it up perfectly - you can close the thread

Originally Posted by Zfatuated

Just to clarify my position (as the original poster), I've always ridiculed the "it's only the tires" posters.

It's never just "one" thing, outstanding performance is always the result of superb engineering addressing the package, not one single part.

You don't just "put those tires on all the other cars in the test to make it fair!".

Whiners and know-nothing nattering nay-bobs may begin to gain a clue if more articles like this come out.

[maddoggyusa]

I personally think all car comparisons should use a spec tire for a true comparison of vehicle design.

Some of these tire compounds are so soft you have to replace them every oil change. You slap them onto any car and performance goes way up... and very misleading.

[doc7000]

Originally Posted by maddoggyusa

I personally think all car comparisons should use a spec tire for a true comparison of vehicle design.

Some of these tire compounds are so soft you have to replace them every oil change. You slap them onto any car and performance goes way up... and very misleading.

Yes and no....

It is true that testing cars on different tires isn't a 100% test of vehicle A vs vehicle B.

Here is the problem and flat out the reason why you will never see car mags do this. Cars are tuned completely with specific tires in mind, those are the tires that the cars come with when you buy them. Changing tires like that will in certain cases completely alter the driving dynamics of the car.

A good example being the Scion FRS, it comes standard with the same tires that the Toyota Prius uses. These are low rolling resistance tires design to better fuel economy and not performance. However the suspension is tuned with the amount of grip that those tires provide, and in standard form people really like the way the car drives. However in one review they put hot tires on the car and suddenly body roll became an issue, where with the standard tires the tires will slip with the better tires the body rolls instead.

You would have to force all of these car makers to use the same exact tires as eachother and tune the vehicles accordingly. You generally will not see that because while these cars may all be performance cars they can be aimed at completely different demographics. A big performance Mercedes coupe for example may be purchased by someone who still expects a certain level of refinement and comfort. While the guy looking at the Porsche 911 GT3 RS is probably looking for a straight track car (much like the Z/28 Camaro is). The S class coupe AMG engineers are going to want a tire that offers good grip but also a smooth ride and less noise. Where as the engineers working on the Porsche 911 GT3 RS is ok with a harsh ride and even some extra road noise (the engine will drown it out anyways).

To sum it up until you can convince all auto makers to use the same tire no matter what they are engineering for this will never work out. Though it is a good point because had car B been setup with the same tires and the same focus on track performance it might have won. It is kind of like the Nissan GTR fan boys complaining that a $115,000 GTR track was beaten by a $75,000 Z/28 Camaro. Though they only saw the advantage that the Z/28 Camaro had over the GTR (the tires is the only one they could figure out go figure). They ignored the fact that the GTR is rated at 545BHP compared to 505BHP for the Z/28 and that the GTR has a faster shifting dual clutch transmission while the Camaro driver had to row his own gears.

All in all this thread is just one big case study of confirmation bias....

[Orange Crush 1LE]

Originally Posted by doc7000

Yes and no....

It is true that testing cars on different tires isn't a 100% test of vehicle A vs vehicle B.

Here is the problem and flat out the reason why you will never see car mags do this. Cars are tuned completely with specific tires in mind, those are the tires that the cars come with when you buy them. Changing tires like that will in certain cases completely alter the driving dynamics of the car.

A good example being the Scion FRS, it comes standard with the same tires that the Toyota Prius uses. These are low rolling resistance tires design to better fuel economy and not performance. However the suspension is tuned with the amount of grip that those tires provide, and in standard form people really like the way the car drives. However in one review they put hot tires on the car and suddenly body roll became an issue, where with the standard tires the tires will slip with the better tires the body rolls instead.

You would have to force all of these car makers to use the same exact tires as eachother and tune the vehicles accordingly. You generally will not see that because while these cars may all be performance cars they can be aimed at completely different demographics. A big performance Mercedes coupe for example may be purchased by someone who still expects a certain level of refinement and comfort. While the guy looking at the Porsche 911 GT3 RS is probably looking for a straight track car (much like the Z/28 Camaro is). The S class coupe AMG engineers are going to want a tire that offers good grip but also a smooth ride and less noise. Where as the engineers working on the Porsche 911 GT3 RS is ok with a harsh ride and even some extra road noise (the engine will drown it out anyways).

To sum it up until you can convince all auto makers to use the same tire no matter what they are engineering for this will never work out. Though it is a good point because had car B been setup with the same tires and the same focus on track performance it might have won. It is kind of like the Nissan GTR fan boys complaining that a $115,000 GTR track was beaten by a $75,000 Z/28 Camaro. Though they only saw the advantage that the Z/28 Camaro had over the GTR (the tires is the only one they could figure out go figure). They ignored the fact that the GTR is rated at 545BHP compared to 505BHP for the Z/28 and that the GTR has a faster shifting dual clutch transmission while the Camaro driver had to row his own gears.

All in all this thread is just one big case study of confirmation bias....

Well I'm a Camaro fan boy but I can't agree with this post. I'm also a Corvette and Viper fanboy, I'm a fan of track-worthy cars. I'd be curious how those that track often and have actually tracked their car with different tires would comment. I'm also curious how much you've tracked and whether you've tried R compounds on an otherwise stock performance car without re-tuning suspension.

Yes, it's true that suspension engineers optimize a car's suspension tuning to a specific tire, and it's also true that tires are sometimes designed for a specific car. Compounds, construction, Etc.

But here's where I disagree- Cars competing in the Z/28's LL3 class are all high performance cars with high performance suspension. Going from their stock tire to an R compound doesn't require retuning to get most of the gain from the R compound. Tuning the suspension will get the last few % improvement. If you swapped Trofeo Rs on on any of the LL3 cars and re-timed them, they would turn significantly faster laps. Re-tune the suspension to the tire and you'd get another tenth or two, but we're not talking seconds here.

In the advanced groups on track days, most guys in my area are running R compounds- Nitto NT-01s, Toyo R888s, Hoosiers. Many of them have stock cars, with the exception of a track alignment and high performance brake fluid and pads. In the hands of a skilled driver, those cars haul ass compared to on the stock tires. Throwing Trofeo Rs on those cars would have the same positive effect.

A stock Scion FRS is not a good example, that's a great starting point for a track car but it's soft suspension is not the same class as the LL3 cars. Corvettes are a better example- a stock Z06 on Hoosiers will kick the crap out of most modified cars, even without changes to the suspension. Vipers are another. The 1LE would be another. The list goes on.

[doc7000]

It is 100% true that I get my information from people that I do know who do track their cars. Though I was more stating a general rule and less about specific vehicles or purely ll3 cars for car and driver.

The point that I was trying to make but maybe failed was there are performance cars and there are track cars. Just because a vehicle is a performance car doesn't mean that it is a track car which is partly why an after market exist. Also my comment is more directed to people who may think that putting r tires on a Prius will suddenly make it a track car. I am sorry that I didn't explain my point well enough for you.

[FINALLYSATISFIED]

Originally Posted by 90503

I'm sure he read it all....

....I think the article de-bunked the argument about "just add the same Z/28 tires to the __________, and it will be faster than the Z/28"....

Those who believed the tires were all that made the Z/28 as good a performer as it is, will be the ones whose "heads explode"....

Not sure why ppl would assume swapping out tires would be the answer. The Z/28 does have a different engine, and everything else. Smh.

[wakespeak]

As most have said handling is making the most of the grip. Transitions corner to corner, bump control, control on an uneven track under hard braking, etc mean as much as the objective numbers. The Z28 smaller diameter sway bars allow more suspension compliance while the special shocks firm up if needed. Let's not forget the dry-sump LS7. The Z28 may be the definitive track car well into Gen6 production. The handling bar is very high, the strong chassis is safe and durable, and the LS7 is simpler and therefore likely a better track engine than the VVT/AFM LT1.