FenwickHockey65's Great Thread of GM Knowledge

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by lbls1

Very informative; Thank you. This answered a few questions that I had concerning SS, Cruze and the Holden program. I still believe that timing was an enemy of GM when it came to the 'SS. I get it that there was a limit on the amount of exports to the US; However if the Holden G8 had proved to be popular and selling, it might have given Pontiac the needed shot in the arm (Pontiac's demise had other factors, however) It might have required more investment from GM, as the Camaro program was being developed, and Cadillac's CTS was a derivative of the Zeta platform. The CTS was a success as it handily outclassed its German rivals, sending them back to the drawing boards.

Cruze; I can see now how it was shelved. GM was eager to pursue the crossover market, which at this writing is still white hot. I can accept that as an answer because it was their business assessment at that time. I am doubtful as whether it was the best solution, but time could play that out. GM seemed to have resolved its company wide quality problems even from last decade, so it wasn't that Cruze was a bad product. Chevy made a smart product creation by focusing on the small car market and crossovers at the same time; The TrailBlazer.

However, it is hard to ignore that GM made some very deep cuts that caused several good ideas to fall to the waste side. The Holden cars had great engineering but suffered with identity issues as a result of neutral styling. Both the GTO and G8/SS could have been hits with the right styling and handling (like the 5th gen Camaro). The Cruze could have been handled as a rival to corolla and civic and the small Hyundai and Kia variants.

Perhaps if the crossover trend lasts longer then GM may actually come out ahead. We'll see.

Edit: Chevelle. A very successful past product of Chevrolet. I feel if the name is to return, it will have to have a definite objective and nothing short of excellent planning and handling of its image and sales. I am not too keen on re-using old name plates, but Chevelle signals a time of youth, happiness, great performance and appearance. Its name sake should represent those elements.

I think this is part of GMs problem. They don't use their nameplates effectively especially when compared to Ford.

Ford gives us the Mach 1, the Bullit, Dark Horse, Cobra. Those names resonate with people.

GM gives us 1LT, LT1, G8, no offense, but ZL1, 1LE. Those names mean nothing outside a hardcore few. They built superior cars in the SS and the ZL1 and did a piss poor job of marketing them.

The G8 was a great car and looked pretty decent too. Throw in a few different visual cues and market it as a Chevelle and it might still be around. Invest a little more in the GTO and it might still be around too.

As a car enthusiast my hat's off to the team who created the 6th gen Camaro and the 7th gen Corvette.

As a business person I have zero respect for GMs management team.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by lbls1

Very informative; Thank you. This answered a few questions that I had concerning SS, Cruze and the Holden program. I still believe that timing was an enemy of GM when it came to the 'SS. I get it that there was a limit on the amount of exports to the US; However if the Holden G8 had proved to be popular and selling, it might have given Pontiac the needed shot in the arm (Pontiac's demise had other factors, however) It might have required more investment from GM, as the Camaro program was being developed, and Cadillac's CTS was a derivative of the Zeta platform. The CTS was a success as it handily outclassed its German rivals, sending them back to the drawing boards.

Cruze; I can see now how it was shelved. GM was eager to pursue the crossover market, which at this writing is still white hot. I can accept that as an answer because it was their business assessment at that time. I am doubtful as whether it was the best solution, but time could play that out. GM seemed to have resolved its company wide quality problems even from last decade, so it wasn't that Cruze was a bad product. Chevy made a smart product creation by focusing on the small car market and crossovers at the same time; The TrailBlazer.

However, it is hard to ignore that GM made some very deep cuts that caused several good ideas to fall to the waste side. The Holden cars had great engineering but suffered with identity issues as a result of neutral styling. Both the GTO and G8/SS could have been hits with the right styling and handling (like the 5th gen Camaro). The Cruze could have been handled as a rival to corolla and civic and the small Hyundai and Kia variants.

Perhaps if the crossover trend lasts longer then GM may actually come out ahead. We'll see.

Edit: Chevelle. A very successful past product of Chevrolet. I feel if the name is to return, it will have to have a definite objective and nothing short of excellent planning and handling of its image and sales. I am not too keen on re-using old name plates, but Chevelle signals a time of youth, happiness, great performance and appearance. Its name sake should represent those elements.

Just want to point out, CTS was on Sigma. A completely different animal from Zeta. At one point there was consideration to do Camaro off of Sigma. A couple problems with that.

1. Cadillac wasn’t having it
2. Comparatively speaking, it was a very expensive platform
3. There was not enough available capacity to support Camaro, given the vehicles that were already planned for Sigma. Several of those vehicles never actually came to market, but they did have a stronger claim to the capacity than Camaro

So as a result, Camaro landed on Zeta. Alpha brought in the same discussions about platform sharing but under different leadership, Cadillac was more amenable and, quite frankly, needed the cost sharing to keep the cost of ATS and CTS more manageable.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

I think this is part of GMs problem. They don't use their nameplates effectively especially when compared to Ford.

Ford gives us the Mach 1, the Bullit, Dark Horse, Cobra. Those names resonate with people.

GM gives us 1LT, LT1, G8, no offense, but ZL1, 1LE. Those names mean nothing outside a hardcore few. They built superior cars in the SS and the ZL1 and did a piss poor job of marketing them.

The G8 was a great car and looked pretty decent too. Throw in a few different visual cues and market it as a Chevelle and it might still be around. Invest a little more in the GTO and it might still be around too.

As a car enthusiast my hat's off to the team who created the 6th gen Camaro and the 7th gen Corvette.

As a business person I have zero respect for GMs management team.

I totally agree with you on the use of nameplates. Ford is taking GM to school on use of heritage names. The only thing worse than Camaro trim naming is the whole Cadillac naming thing. What a mess.

[lbls1]

ZL1 IMO was a success. I can definitely identify with it. It got dicey when Chevy was trying to justify the small block use in it, versus the 427 cubic inch in the z/28; In terms of image both models were a success. I believe all of Chevy's marketing left a lot to be desired. The ZL1's marketing was based on the International Car Show, and a slew of magazine tests and comparisons to the GT500. It was a great period for the 5th gen.

Cadillac has always been a stand out when it comes to its car names. They can be fussy; CTS was a success though. Not necessarily for its name but what the car was able to produce. Right now, the various names does leave one in a fog.

[lbls1]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

I think this is part of GMs problem. They don't use their nameplates effectively especially when compared to Ford.

Ford gives us the Mach 1, the Bullit, Dark Horse, Cobra. Those names resonate with people.

GM gives us 1LT, LT1, G8, no offense, but ZL1, 1LE. Those names mean nothing outside a hardcore few. They built superior cars in the SS and the ZL1 and did a piss poor job of marketing them.

The G8 was a great car and looked pretty decent too. Throw in a few different visual cues and market it as a Chevelle and it might still be around. Invest a little more in the GTO and it might still be around too.

As a car enthusiast my hat's off to the team who created the 6th gen Camaro and the 7th gen Corvette.

As a business person I have zero respect for GMs management team.

Well............I wish I had a compelling argument against this, but right now I don't. What I will agree with is the fact that GM should focus more on advertising and media coverage to promote its models. It looks like they're starting this. Car commercials are back!

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by lbls1

One other thing I missed (rather two things); Cruze and Chevy SS. The Chevy 'SS was a remnant of the Holden line that was imported to the US initially as the Pontiac G8. The model IMO was unique in that it missed its target market twice. It missed it with Pontiac because it was not allowed a long enough run for it to get noticed. Additionally, large sedans (even in '07 and '08) was a segment in recession. There were a few players in the market at that time, but in general midsized sedans were current and popular then. The model returned in '14 as a Chevy variant without a proper name. Essentially unchanged except in its grille and cladding. It had advanced safety and luxury features, and roughly $10k higher in price. GM and Chevy didn't intend for it to be a high volume seller, but more as a way of selling out the remainder of the Holden line. Its demise was unfortunate; The car would have done well had it been introduced four or five years prior to its first launch. The car seemed to have had better than average quality, and certainly the v8 version had great power and performance abilities. If it were handled better at that time it would've made a great follow up to the '94-'96 Impala SS. The Chevy 'SS does have a slight following in the resale market, most notable by its unusually high asking price. But just think of how much better it could have performed with a few years in advance of its launch, and perhaps a different take in styling.

Cruze. To this day I can't put a finger on why it failed. Cruze was the last descendant of Chevy's small car segment, punctuated by the once popular Cavalier. Cavaliers were good as average commuting vehicles, but most viewed it as relatively crude and a bit lacking in quality. Chevy renamed its replacement as Cobalt, and at that time it was meant to signal a better quality product. I would assume that Cobalt may not have completely accomplished Chevrolet's goals, as roughly a decade (give or take a year) it was re-packaged and named Cruze. Cruze seemed to have had a decent start as it looked like it was picking up sales. Then a few years later (six or seven years) it was gone as well. It is a mystery to me as why Cruze did not succeed; Even as Chevy's current crossovers are selling well, the absence of one or two of Chevy's former lines leaves it without a good competitor to Toyota and Honda and other smaller companies entries in the small car and midsized sedan segments.

Back in late 2015 when I decided to place an order for my 2016 Camaro 1SS, the Chevy SS sedan was being heavily discounted. I could have bought what was essentially a luxed up loaded Chevy performance sedan for the same cost of my much less equipped 1SS Camaro. I knew SS was a good performer, but I couldn't get past it's Malibu looks. That and I was pretty damned excited about the new LT1 V8 and the the new 8 speed the Camaro was getting so I went for the Camaro with no thought otherwise.

Now I sometimes wish I had thought harder and realized the SS would be such a rare car (and maybe I should have considered the fact that my family was still growing at the time lol...more room!). With the way I've kept my Camaro, the SS sedan would probably worth somewhere around 50 grand today (based on the last time I checked out used prices on those guys). With some slight performance enhancements here and there, and some mods give it a meaner look the car does look nice. Would be cool to have a "rare gem" like that.

As for the Cruze...I'll just say that I've always like that car and hated to see it go.

[genxer]

Well for not using names. They didn't come up with a workable 6th gen Z28. (unless they shock us with the finale). I wish they'd have stolen Trans Am as the regular ZL1 name, and made ZL1 the name modifier for the A1Z.

[lbls1]

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

Back in late 2015 when I decided to place an order for my 2016 Camaro 1SS, the Chevy SS sedan was being heavily discounted. I could have bought what was essentially a luxed up loaded Chevy performance sedan for the same cost of my much less equipped 1SS Camaro. I knew SS was a good performer, but I couldn't get past it's Malibu looks. That and I was pretty damned excited about the new LT1 V8 and the the new 8 speed the Camaro was getting so I went for the Camaro with no thought otherwise.

Now I sometimes wish I had thought harder and realized the SS would be such a rare car (and maybe I should have considered the fact that my family was still growing at the time lol...more room!). With the way I've kept my Camaro, the SS sedan would probably worth somewhere around 50 grand today (based on the last time I checked out used prices on those guys). With some slight performance enhancements here and there, and some mods give it a meaner look the car does look nice. Would be cool to have a "rare gem" like that.

As for the Cruze...I'll just say that I've always like that car and hated to see it go.

When the SS was launched I had already purchased my ZL1. A few years later I had an opportunity to replace my daily driven Malibu. I couldn't justify buying an 'SS (it was pricey used) and driving it hard for daily use. I then bought an 8th gen Malibu for daily use. I used to own a Cavalier and I was happy with it for a while. I made the decision to go up in size and quality after having the Cav a few years with its quality issues and then being involved in a rear end collision.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I totally agree with you on the use of nameplates. Ford is taking GM to school on use of heritage names. The only thing worse than Camaro trim naming is the whole Cadillac naming thing. What a mess.

I despise Cadillac's naming structure. They spent a good deal of time building up CTS and then ATS and then V. Then decided the hell with all that CT4,CT5, V-Series,V Blackwing

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

Back in late 2015 when I decided to place an order for my 2016 Camaro 1SS, the Chevy SS sedan was being heavily discounted. I could have bought what was essentially a luxed up loaded Chevy performance sedan for the same cost of my much less equipped 1SS Camaro. I knew SS was a good performer, but I couldn't get past it's Malibu looks. That and I was pretty damned excited about the new LT1 V8 and the the new 8 speed the Camaro was getting so I went for the Camaro with no thought otherwise.

Now I sometimes wish I had thought harder and realized the SS would be such a rare car (and maybe I should have considered the fact that my family was still growing at the time lol...more room!). With the way I've kept my Camaro, the SS sedan would probably worth somewhere around 50 grand today (based on the last time I checked out used prices on those guys). With some slight performance enhancements here and there, and some mods give it a meaner look the car does look nice. Would be cool to have a "rare gem" like that.

As for the Cruze...I'll just say that I've always like that car and hated to see it go.

Buddy of mine purchased an SS when they were being discounted. I think he said he got offered like 12K more than he paid for it by the dealer last time he had it in for service. He loves that car, doubt he will ever get rid of it. Only thing he doesn't like about it is he said that getting some replacement parts has been an issue though...

[90503]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I despise Cadillac's naming structure. They spent a good deal of time building up CTS and then ATS and then V. Then decided the hell with all that CT4,CT5, V-Series,V Blackwing

Don't forget this one...lol...

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/03...naming-scheme/

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by 90503

Don't forget this one...lol...

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/03...naming-scheme/

That's the worst of them all for sure.

[FenwickHockey65]

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2023/01...aked-in-china/


2024 XT4

[snizzle]

I can't believe they get a mild hybrid over there and nothing here. What is going on?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by snizzle

I can't believe they get a mild hybrid over there and nothing here. What is going on?

Mild hybrids just aren’t a thing in the US. Nobody except Honda can make money on them. Ram has one available on their pickup but it costs more than they can price for it. They need it to balance their Truck CAFE, so it’s worth the additional cost. Cheaper than paying the fine, otherwise they probably wouldn’t have it either.