Inside Line: 2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 vs. 2013 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 Comparison

[rez333]

Originally Posted by 10forty2

I feel ya on this point, but I offer another view....

Which is superior in a dogfight... a modern-day F-15 Eagle fighter jet, or a WWII Corsair? And I think anyone would say the answer would be the F-15. The F15 benefits from superior technology and is therefore the winner hands down in a head to head fight. Of course, the Corsair pilot may have full control of his aircraft via cables, but the F15 pilot has computerized fly-by-wire technology that allows him to dominate the air. When it comes to winning, you take every advantage you can get!!
Now, with that said, I do LOVE to have full control of my vehicles, especially when I'm driving with spirit.... LOL! But I'll also take advantage of technology to make me a better driver!!

I actually thought of this very analogy too, but it doesn't count.

In "fighter planes", the prize isn't a trophy, it's life. In plane racing, it's precisely about "cables". There are no computerized planes in plane racing because that wouldn't be fun any more. Plane racing involves planes that are based on WW2 technology. Look at NASCAR or F1 - how much computers are involved in that? The less the better, IMO.

I'm not taking anything away from the ZL1, it's still an amazing car; however being proud of its lap times that are thanks to its computerized suspension rings a little hollow for me.

Taken to an extreme, in the future when computers can finally drive race cars by themselves, will you really be excited if a computerized ZL1 driver can beat a computerized GT500 driver?

[TJ91]

The GT500 is one badass car. Sure the numbers are close, but they are still pretty big in difference. Just look at the 0-60. The ZL1 is amazing dont get me wrong, but the GT500 is the clear winner.

[Van@RevanRacing]

Originally Posted by rez333

I think ultimately auto sports are about testing drivers, not cars.

What these magazine comparisons "prove" is which car is "better" to someone who doesn't "know" how to maximize the potential of either car - ie. a new driver.

Maybe we should examine how useful that really is to anyone. The bottom line is that these cars ARE going to be tested against each other on the track in real-life, in the hands of owners who have had time to familiarize themselves with their cars. What good are the magazine comparisons in these situations? Will the loser give the excuse that "oh well I lost, but so-and-so magazine says my car is better".

This is what I am talking about. Erik is familiar with his ZL1 and I am familiar with my GT500. We'll discuss base to base or modded to modded. It's an open discussion.

The point of the Head to Head COMPARISON is to do just that, have two people familiar with their vehicles push them at a track and record lap times and also potentially use VBox technology to record data and do overlays.

The data overlays are what you will NEVER get from a magazine or the manufacturers. Erik and I would essentially share copies of each others VBox Recordings and be able to overlay ZL1 data in one color and GT500 Data in another that will show speed and lateral G's all the way through the course.

I'm not a Professional Driver. I don't know about Erik, perhaps he is. Regardless, I think the SVT Community and the Camaro Community would all benefit from the information.

Would conclusions ever be drawn? Not likely. Then we can mod the heck out of them and keep going at it. Let's have some fun dammit!

[rez333]

.. I think I want to conclude by saying this:

I think the "better" bench racing test to make, is "what's the best lap any driver can make on either of these cars". I prefer that than comparing lap times by a magazine driver who is not familiar with either car because the former is a test that is closer to what an owner can aspire to; the latter is only as good as the test-drive.

edit: Van - I didn't notice your reply before I wrote this, but it looks like we're on the same page. I agree with you and would prefer to see owner vs owner tests, than the magazine stuff.

[nanokpsi]

Originally Posted by newb

I don't see it as biased. In racing a single fast lap does not win races. Consistency does. The gt500 put down a hero lap or two but the ZL1 was faster and more composed "most" of the time. Having raced motorcycles as a amateur I know that a fast lap is nothing if you can't duplicate it 17 times. Racing is about hitting certain marks and points EVERYTIME, not just for a few laps. So to me, they gave credit where it was due. A great run by the 500, but you would not want to be door to door with one. When inches matter, you could not guarantee the 500 would stay online. And that makes the ZL1 a better track car. Especially for a non professional.

So much for these guys watching the tail lights of the Camaro disappear.....

These cars are not going to be raced wheel to wheel. There is no sactioned races where they actually could be. People are just using lap times to see which car is more capable.

Take the Viper for example. An amazing machine that is capable of some blazingly fast times. Is everyone going to be able to duplicate those times, every lap? "Throttle lift over-steer" comes to mind. However, does that mean it is not a good track car?

The fact that the Shelby pulled out a "W" on a small, tight track should make some people fear what is going to happen on a fast track in capable hands.

Like I said before, the road course results are going to be drvier and track dependant. However, the drag strip and friendly "roll-ons" in traffic will always be dominated by the Shelby.

If you bought a ZL1, or want a ZL1 becasue you like the Camaro better, that is fine. Same goes for the Shelby. That is fine, and probably why most of each model is bought. However, I think a person looks silly when they say they bought a ZL1 becasue it is a better track car, when the Shelby will pull out the faster time on a road course.

[Van@RevanRacing]

Originally Posted by rez333

.. I think I want to conclude by saying this:

I think the "better" bench racing test to make, is "what's the best lap any driver can make on either of these cars". I prefer that than comparing lap times by a magazine driver who is not familiar with either car because the former is a test that is closer to what an owner can aspire to; the latter is only as good as the test-drive.

edit: Van - I didn't notice your reply before I wrote this, but it looks like we're on the same page. I agree with you and would prefer to see owner vs owner tests, than the magazine stuff.

[nanokpsi]

Originally Posted by Bob Cosby

I agree with your final analysis, but....



LOL. I'm sorry, and I mean no offense, but as a WWII History buff, and a aviation buff in general....that is a really BAD analogy!

It would be like comparing a ZL1 to a 56 T-Bird....

Not to mention that the accleration and top speed doesn't really work with the anaolgy either.

[SlingShot]

Originally Posted by rez333

Look at NASCAR or F1 - how much computers are involved in that? The less the better, IMO.

NASCAR uses very little in the way of computers. They are only used for electronic ignition and fuel. Everything else is in the hands of the driver and crew. That's why I respect that sport so much, 3400 lbs. with 900 hp times 43 cars, now that's a hand full.

[rez333]

Originally Posted by Mr. Unassailable

I like that statement, but that speaks of the racer. Not the car. A good rider (driver) will put down consistent laps on whatever equipment they have.

This.

I want to see real racers racing their cars, not magazine guys. I'm curious to see if my theory that "MRS eliminates outliers" is true or not.

[rez333]

Originally Posted by SlingShot

NASCAR uses very little in the way of computers. They are only used for electronic ignition and fuel. Everything else is in the hands of the driver and crew. That's why I respect that sport so much, 3400 lbs. with 900 hp times 43 cars, now that's a hand full.

I think the Insideline driver would have got the better track time with a ZL1 compared with a NASCAR car. The NASCAR car would have made the Insideline crap his pants, like most of us. The Insideline guy would have then given the win to the ZL1.

[2SSJIM]

Originally Posted by Bob Cosby

It should be noted that if one wants to do some fairly serious Road Racing, they will need to option up the GT500 above the price of a ZL1.

For drag racing....base car gets it done best.

Any serious Racers would build a race car designed for whatever race they wish to participate in. All of you compare a after market car (SHELBY GT500) to a production car (ZL1) and want to bash it. When Ford builds a production car that's better, let me know. If you want to compare after market cars, lets compare the HPE700 to the Shelby. Don't want to do that huh... why not, is it because we ALL know the answer to that?

[Bob Cosby]

Originally Posted by nanokpsi

Not to mention that the accleration and top speed doesn't really work with the anaolgy either.

Hmmm....perhaps an F-15 vs a MIG-25?

[SlingShot]

Originally Posted by 2SSJIM

Any serious Racers would build a race car designed for whatever race they wish to participate in. All of you compare a after market car (SHELBY GT500) to a production car (ZL1) and want to bash it. When Ford builds a production car that's better, let me know. If you want to compare after market cars, lets compare the HPE700 to the Shelby. Don't want to do that huh... why not, is it because we ALL know the answer to that?

You may want to rethink your statement ... The Shelby GT500 is a production car ... It's not an aftermarket car from Shelby America ...

[Erik@Torq]

Originally Posted by Van@RevanRacing

This is what I am talking about. Erik is familiar with his ZL1 and I am familiar with my GT500. We'll discuss base to base or modded to modded. It's an open discussion.

The point of the Head to Head COMPARISON is to do just that, have two people familiar with their vehicles push them at a track and record lap times and also potentially use VBox technology to record data and do overlays.

The data overlays are what you will NEVER get from a magazine or the manufacturers. Erik and I would essentially share copies of each others VBox Recordings and be able to overlay ZL1 data in one color and GT500 Data in another that will show speed and lateral G's all the way through the course.

I'm not a Professional Driver. I don't know about Erik, perhaps he is. Regardless, I think the SVT Community and the Camaro Community would all benefit from the information.

Would conclusions ever be drawn? Not likely. Then we can mod the heck out of them and keep going at it. Let's have some fun dammit!

Exactly! Comparing lap times, racing or whatever. To me it's in all in good FUN!

I have the utmost respect for the 2013 GT500 and I know it is very capable car with a good driver behind the steering wheel. I used to have a track spec'd 06 GT before and loved it even with the low HP she had. I can only imagine the insanity of the GT500.

As Van mentioned, comparing the logs from the V-box will show everything we want to know, acceleration, G-forces during accel and decel (braking), corner speed etc and of course laptimes. Regardless who is faster, they might differ tremendously in certain sections. Turn 17 (VERY bumpy) might benefit the Camaro, Bishops Bend (fast double left hand sweeper) might benefit the Mustang. Who knows! One fast laptime might only tell half the story which is why it's awesome to be able to compare several laps together.

I am no processional driver either, but as mentioned I am very familiar with the Camaro, and after this weekend hopefully even more familiar with the ZL1 after my first trackday. I think that the data that two "good" drivers can collect would be more interesting than two professional race car drivers as it is more "real world" numbers. The weather won't be perfect, we won't have a crew of engineers on site adjusting things every lap etc. But we do have 2 of the most bad a** cars available on the market today that are somewhat affordable and a good match, despite the HP difference from the factory.

/Erik