2014 Camaro Z/28 pricing announced at $75,000

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Note corrections.

RE: which BOSS? Listen closely, or turn up the volume, @ 1:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=ybUOyjGIUqQ

I suspect Dave Pericak knows the difference.

I'm not sure Cotter does...as further in your quoted article, Cotter shares THIS tidbit: "Cotter said he couldn't confirm what would come in the Track Pack for the 2015 Ford Mustang as of yet because it hadn't been finalized". Spoken like a true Communications flak. But it'll outrun the [non-GM-engined] LS...trust me.

And which one is the Chief Engineer? Dave Pericak.

Don't know why you corrected my "Laguna Seca" to "LS". Please explain. I suppose you know something I don't know. There is a Boss 302 and a Boss 302 Laguna Seca (aka LS for short) as far as I know.
That's how it appears as 1.39 time at the Laguna Seca track lap records.
The Boss 302 ran there at 1:40.2 so either way the 2 cars are very close especially given the latter comes with streets. As to the claims, who knows, perhaps the Chief Eng was conservative, or the Comm guy totally out of the loop. Seems strange as he specifically mentioned the Laguna Seca edition lap time (1:39 vs 1:40). But surely I'd take the former source as accurate. Either way both are very close. As to actuals, i am sure we will hear a lot more (and hopefully one consistent story) on the 13th. The interesting part (for me) here is that Pobst piloted the Z51 there to 1:38 in comparison.

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Two years?! It took GM two years to plunk in an old motor, outsource suspension, brakes, seats, wheels and tires? Wow!
But seriously, get ANY car, no matter the price, beat on it at the track and things will break. Nobody to blame here, as even with F1 budgets things do break there too. Just a nature of the beast. So nobody to "blame" but sinply go back to the dealer and if the part is under warranty: get a new one. Now about those ZL1 motors losing power due to heat soak...somebody ought to be blamed for that for sure.

Mr. TrackClub - I'm going to try to be as nice as possible here.

For 37 pages, people within the industry have TRIED -- OVER AND OVER AGAIN to explain to you the 'facts of life' as they pertain to product development.

..........and you continue to argue.

Perhaps you need to simply go back and READ CAREFULLY what people are saying -- because frankly you're starting to sound a bit ridiculous to anyone who truly understands this business. (....not armchair engineers - I mean people who are in the know....)

I don't like saying that -but I don't know what else to do to get your attention or to make you understand.

(...one of my biggest frustrations is trying to share our experiences and our knowledge with the public at large.........)



I'm simply stunned.

We've developed a line of cars that are the envy of many manufacturers.

a 323 hp thrill-ride for well under 25K with a list a mile long of standard equipment

...and then:

SS

1LE


ZL1

and now Z/28.....

....a Camaro for just about every purpose -- every one of them a thoroughbred -- every one of them a value when compared to other cars with similar performance and features................

........and then there's the Corvette -

............and yet people are still upset with us.


Does anyone realize how ridiculous some of the remarks in this thread sound?

Now -- all that said? The Camaro Enthusiast community at large is celebrating..........as well they should.

We will continue to visit with our Camaro/Firebird Clubs and we'll continue to sit "one on one" to ensure that we offer the best 'bang for the buck' while also meeting Federal Mandates..........
For those of you who want a "More affordable" Z/28? May I suggest you go out and test-drive a 1LE today? Prepare for "Perma-grin"..........

[fbodfather]

one other thought:

When "LOWDOWN" or "NUMBER 3" speak?

PAY ATTENTION..........they have forgotten more about product development than most people on this site will ever know.

(I don't mean that as a put-down to most of you - but these two men have earned - over many years - -the right to opine and to be respected......)

You would be wise to read (and learn from) every word they say.............you may just learn something...............

Lecture over.

[ShnOmac]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

one other thought:

When "LOWDOWN" or "NUMBER 3" speak?

PAY ATTENTION..........they have forgotten more about product development than most people on this site will ever know.

(I don't mean that as a put-down to most of you - but these two men have earned - over many years - -the right to opine and to be respected......)

You would be wise to read (and learn from) every word they say.............you may just learn something...............

Lecture over.

Simply put...

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

Mr. TrackClub - I'm going to try to be as nice as possible here.

For 37 pages, people within the industry have TRIED -- OVER AND OVER AGAIN to explain to you the 'facts of life' as they pertain to product development.

..........and you continue to argue.

Perhaps you need to simply go back and READ CAREFULLY what people are saying -- because frankly you're starting to sound a bit ridiculous to anyone who truly understands this business. (....not armchair engineers - I mean people who are in the know....)

I don't like saying that -but I don't know what else to do to get your attention or to make you understand.

(...one of my biggest frustrations is trying to share our experiences and our knowledge with the public at large.........)



I'm simply stunned.

We've developed a line of cars that are the envy of many manufacturers.

a 323 hp thrill-ride for well under 25K with a list a mile long of standard equipment

...and then:

SS

1LE


ZL1

and now Z/28.....

....a Camaro for just about every purpose -- every one of them a thoroughbred -- every one of them a value when compared to other cars with similar performance and features................

........and then there's the Corvette -

............and yet people are still upset with us.


Does anyone realize how ridiculous some of the remarks in this thread sound?

Now -- all that said? The Camaro Enthusiast community at large is celebrating..........as well they should.

We will continue to visit with our Camaro/Firebird Clubs and we'll continue to sit "one on one" to ensure that we offer the best 'bang for the buck' while also meeting Federal Mandates..........
For those of you who want a "More affordable" Z/28? May I suggest you go out and test-drive a 1LE today? Prepare for "Perma-grin"..........

Dear Fbodfather, thank you for being nice (a baseball bat in hand notwithstanding). Foregive me, but being new here, I surmise you work for GM in a senior capacity and close to Camaros specifically? I absolutely love what GM has to offer et al: from Camaros, to CTS Vs, Chevy SS and of course the Vette. But, I would be dishonest if I said that I shared this feeling towards the z28. Specifically from the pricing POV. As a prior owner of a brand new 81 z28 (the best car I've ever owned, or maybe it was just the memories of it), I, like many others, wished you hadn't taken this model "up market" and out of reach of many. I presently own a C5Z and track it frequently. I am looking for a replacement and when the z28 got announced I thought it was it! Assuming you read my posts you understand (hopefully) why I feel the way I do. I too know a bit about product development and marketing (on a multi national, large budget basis) albeit I am neither an engineer, nor an encyclopedic car buff per se. I just like to drive. I have a tremendous brand loyalty, but am sensitive to value vs performance aspect. Based on the published tests, I almost purchased a ZL1, until I saw comments regarding heat soak issues. This surprised me, as I know many folks who track zr1s without such issues. Would you kindly comment on this subject, assuming you can. If so, I much appreciate it in advance. If not, perhaps you could direct me to one of your colleagues? Thanks much!

[Number 3]

FYI getting "big HP numbers" from a naturally aspirated engine tha MEETS Federal emissions standards and actually MEETS all of an OEMs reliability and durability and quality targets and MEETS cost targets is pretty is not an easy task. In fact I'm pretty sure the best you'll find is the 5.0 Coyote and the LS7.

What you can do in your garage doesn't meet most if those requirments

[Padre]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

I surmise you work for GM in a senior capacity and close to Camaros specifically?

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2013/04/...-z28-and-more/

Scott, I think it's great that your on here openly engaging enthusiasts on this forum. Just remember what you said in the above article:

"And then there are the trolls………….who like nothing more than to start something………"

There comes a point of diminishing returns.



Padre

[Doubleblank]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Yeah, buying somebody else's race car is probably the fastest and cheapest way to go about it if one never needs to use it on the street or maintain registration/insurance/inspection on it.

However, in the total sense that also means buying, registering, insuring, and keeping inspected a truck and a trailer. That's a non-starter on several levels at least for me individually, so I keep coming back to a lightly to moderately-modified dual-purpose car of some sort being the result of the first decision.


Norm

Norm, I hear you on needing the trailer and hauler. It makes getting a used race car more expensive. But in my experience, if you drive your car to the track and run it hard enough, it's going home on a trailer a fair amount of the time anyway. For the guy running a few HPDE's a year, heck, just call the tow truck......unless home is 4 hours away. I don't have a trailer myself, but being part owner of a race team gives me access to one. My car came home on the trailer last time out in late November.

[AlohaBR]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

Mr. TrackClub - I'm going to try to be as nice as possible here.

For 37 pages, people within the industry have TRIED -- OVER AND OVER AGAIN to explain to you the 'facts of life' as they pertain to product development.

..........and you continue to argue.

Perhaps you need to simply go back and READ CAREFULLY what people are saying -- because frankly you're starting to sound a bit ridiculous to anyone who truly understands this business. (....not armchair engineers - I mean people who are in the know....)

I don't like saying that -but I don't know what else to do to get your attention or to make you understand.

(...one of my biggest frustrations is trying to share our experiences and our knowledge with the public at large.........)



I'm simply stunned.

We've developed a line of cars that are the envy of many manufacturers.

a 323 hp thrill-ride for well under 25K with a list a mile long of standard equipment

...and then:

SS

1LE


ZL1

and now Z/28.....

....a Camaro for just about every purpose -- every one of them a thoroughbred -- every one of them a value when compared to other cars with similar performance and features................

........and then there's the Corvette -

............and yet people are still upset with us.


Does anyone realize how ridiculous some of the remarks in this thread sound?

Now -- all that said? The Camaro Enthusiast community at large is celebrating..........as well they should.

We will continue to visit with our Camaro/Firebird Clubs and we'll continue to sit "one on one" to ensure that we offer the best 'bang for the buck' while also meeting Federal Mandates..........
For those of you who want a "More affordable" Z/28? May I suggest you go out and test-drive a 1LE today? Prepare for "Perma-grin"..........

Originally Posted by fbodfather

one other thought:

When "LOWDOWN" or "NUMBER 3" speak?

PAY ATTENTION..........they have forgotten more about product development than most people on this site will ever know.

(I don't mean that as a put-down to most of you - but these two men have earned - over many years - -the right to opine and to be respected......)

You would be wise to read (and learn from) every word they say.............you may just learn something...............

Lecture over.

Thank you Scott! Thank the whole team for an awesome product line-up, so many options so little time, lol.

[Mikes SS]

Originally Posted by Blueclyde

I totally missed this point. Yes, they will make money. They're not a charity. They also have to deal with CAFE. Do you think this is optional? Also, how unhappy would people be with a $62K (your figure) 1LE that would be outrun by a cheaper ZL1. I wish all could be happy with the 1LE as it is.

No, the point is some people would prefer naturally aspirated over forced-induction, that would be the difference in the cars..obviously the price would be higher due to the LS7 being hand built...I don't see how everyone missed my point but then again the ones saying they missed it are missing everyone else's point on here too. I'll try again...recertifying a LS7 to make 550HP would be a lot cheaper and stuffing it in a 1LE with R comp tires than it is recertifying and testing the some 2000 parts that are different on the current Z/28. They purposely went overboard on design and price so that they could "justify" the price and keep the volume low and still make money. It all has to do with CAFE not bringing a car that "MOST" would be happy to pay 62K for and more than 1500 units.

[wakespeak]

The Z28 is the real deal American track car with 4 seats. Nürburgring times better than cars with $100K plus stickers. They will sell all of them at $75K. Few people have the time/money to Frankenstein their own dedicated track car. You can use this car like someone buying a Porsche GT3 would as a DD with track durability.

I just hope this is not the peak of GM product development, new CEO and all.

[72MachOne99GT]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Dear Fbodfather, thank you for being nice (a baseball bat in hand notwithstanding). Foregive me, but being new here, I surmise you work for GM in a senior capacity and close to Camaros specifically? I absolutely love what GM has to offer et al: from Camaros, to CTS Vs, Chevy SS and of course the Vette. But, I would be dishonest if I said that I shared this feeling towards the z28. Specifically from the pricing POV. As a prior owner of a brand new 81 z28 (the best car I've ever owned, or maybe it was just the memories of it), I, like many others, wished you hadn't taken this model "up market" and out of reach of many. I presently own a C5Z and track it frequently. I am looking for a replacement and when the z28 got announced I thought it was it! Assuming you read my posts you understand (hopefully) why I feel the way I do. I too know a bit about product development and marketing (on a multi national, large budget basis) albeit I am neither an engineer, nor an encyclopedic car buff per se. I just like to drive. I have a tremendous brand loyalty, but am sensitive to value vs performance aspect. Based on the published tests, I almost purchased a ZL1, until I saw comments regarding heat soak issues. This surprised me, as I know many folks who track zr1s without such issues. Would you kindly comment on this subject, assuming you can. If so, I much appreciate it in advance. If not, perhaps you could direct me to one of your colleagues? Thanks much!

Forgive me for butting in, but I think this is the issue. The car, the way it is equipped, the costs that were put into it, and the performance it provides *regardless of value vs foreign competition* absolutely demanded the car to be upmarket.

I could run around all day asking why the ZL1 costs as much as it does. I mean, really, it's only 160 more horsepower and a suspension change from being a SS...so why is it so 'up market and out of the price range of so many?"

I honestly believe that if either Ford OR GM could produce a car like this (the Z/28 in discussion) for 50,000 dollars and turn a profit on it, they would, but clearly as many have tried illustrating, they can't.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Padre

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2013/04/...-z28-and-more/

Scott, I think it's great that your on here openly engaging enthusiasts on this forum. Just remember what you said in the above article:

"And then there are the trolls………….who like nothing more than to start something………"

There comes a point of diminishing returns.



Padre

I assume this post was at least partly for my benefit, so thanks for sharing the link here. Good read and it explains a lot. Indeed, I do think it is very refreshing and special to have somebody of Scott's stature sharing comments on the forum. Now since I am being labelled with a rather undignified name of a troll, let me offer a few comments/clarifications, so folks don't take a single post and then flame it out of the overall context:
1) I absolutely love the styling of all GM's new cars. This includes the Camaros, the new Vette, the Caddies, etc. And yes it includes all the new rear lights bar none
2) I am not a "purist" by any means, don't know the detailed history of each brand, including the significance of the "slash" and alike. Neither am I overly motivated by same. I happen to be closely associated with a Bimmer community (in addition to a local Vette brother/sisterhood of course), yet couldn't care less that BMW M coupe is an M4 now for example (and most of them don't either BTW). But it is good to learn about these things as I go along and indeed I have learnt quite a bit over the past few days: my gain and my thank you.
3) If "starting something (new?)" makes me a troll, I am stunned. I think as a loyal customer of the GM brand, I have a right to seek clarifications wrt my purchasing decisions. And where better than a forum like this? Yes, some of my comments were no doubt edgy and could be viewed as over the top, just like some responses could be viewed as naïve and banal and some performance suggestions as "overly optimistic".
4) Given my purchasing decison process (performance to value) I zeroed in on the ZL1 to Z28 comparo at Milford and the Ring. Given I am interested in purely track performance, i hope it makes sense here as obviously I wouldn't run a ZL1 on a track on its stock Goodyears (nothing against them as very capable street tires).
5) Based on the above, plus lack of comparo to the new C7 Z51, I mused about the performance to value aspect here again, given the Vette is much cheaper and so is the ZL1.
6) There were also other comments relative to z28's price, specifically to it reaching a level of a (much?) more track capable C6 Z06. The last statement is just my assumption given power to weight ratio.

So this pretty much covers what I was chiefly after, in a single post.

What motivates my purchasing are performance facts vs marketing slogans, or status symbols. Otherwise I'd be driving a Ferrari (as some of my good friends do). I hope this explains my motivation/interest here. Trust me, there is no "conspiracy" here. If some of my comments came across incorrectly - I apologize to the forum community et al. But, I do believe my subjects of dicussions were valid and I do prescribe to "trust but verify" (or "clarify") mantra when it comes to performance. And it takes some digging, including the Ring times for example, as some are not necessairly apples to apples. Other folks buy cars based on emotions, brochures, or nostalgia. These are valid reasons too. Just not to me personally.

Now perhaps some folks will flame me for "repeating it all over again", once again. So be it. FYI I did it to clarify my motivations and my specific interests.
If that's classified as trolling on this forum, I will be happy to leave and watch from the distance. Thank you!

[mkorgan]

Originally Posted by wakespeak

I just hope this is not the peak of GM product development, new CEO and all.

A concern I share as well.