*Pics* Why you should do a Solid Isolator Coupler...

[29er]

i'm pretty shure that, those groves are allready made for the spring to sit in .since it has 3 doll pins to make it hold in place.-the pulley--

if it was really worn out, those grooves would be shiny not black. when metal wears against metal it polish itself so ;--and if it has heat damaged it will be blueish color -- it's not the spring who made the grooves.it's machined like that. i'm convinced.

[GretchenGotGrowl]

Originally Posted by silverds

It depends, data that answers what question? Whether "it seems" to me or not?

No, I have no data, but I can assure you that as a consumer, looking for true data of why something that is being marketed to me as an upgrade or an improvement to something I already have, the burden is not on me, to provide proof, it's on the marketer.

It "seems to me" they have nothing better than "look at these pictures" and "everyone else is selling them".

Heck many, if not all soft drink distributors sell bottled water. They say it's fresher, more pure, distilled, filtered....whatever. They may even show pictures of floaties pouring from your tap into a glass. But none can prove it's better than tap water.

The truth is I don't have any data to prove, that The Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and the Tooth Fairy don't exist either. But until you asked your question, I didn't think proof was needed.

So, what it seems to me is you are coming down on the side of folks that want to keep their warranty. Sounds good to me. If the problem arises in the first 5 years/100,000 mi. it costs them nothing to fix. Consider it from the point of view of someone who does the pulley swap. They no longer have a GM warranty if this issue arises. So in that case they either have to live with the rattle or they have to pay out of pocket for the fix. What is GM book for that job? Have you any evidence (anecdotal or otherwise) that the rattle problem exists with the solid isolator? If not and if the GM book value exceeds $60, then doesn't it make sense that people would make this change when doing the pulley swap? Isn't it a GOOD thing that performance shops avoid future disappointment a customers may have if they are unfortunate enough to get the rattle after they have voided their warranty? I wouldn't call that marketing I would call it common sense.

[BaylorCamaro]

Originally Posted by Modern07

When changing pulleys you also lose the warranty so changing the supercharger for free to get rid of the issue is no longer an option - but changing to a solid isolator without the spring gets rid of the noise and costs nothing more than $60.

It would make NO sense not to change it given this fact.

When I do my tune and pulley I will be doing the isolator coupler as well.

Each argument has grounds for being correct. We've seen the wear the OEM isolator coupler makes and a lot of us have heard that damn rattle. What we know is that after market isolator coupler shouldn't be making those wear grooves since the spring is gone and it also helps with the annoying noise.

Now what we do not know is does the after market isolator coupler decrease super charger life by XX%? Both sides of the argument have reason that THEY want/can/should be correct. Obviously an OEM design if tampered with is no longer under warranty and an aftermarket part that seems to fix an annoying issue would definitely become unpopular if there was documented proof that without the spring XX% of super charger life is decreased.

Ultimately it is up to the consumer to decide what they want to do. No need to piss in anyones cheerio's here, unless a Mustang owner is going to be eating them

[silverds]

Originally Posted by Modern07

People change them when changing the pulleys to get rid of the rattle noise.

This is true.

Originally Posted by Modern07

The rattle noise is caused by the spring in the spring loaded isolator, ..

This is true. But to explain what causes the noise; The spring abrading around the shaft makes no audible noise outside of the cavity within which it sits. However, when the coupler is not under load there is insufficient resistance to keep the driveshaft pins in contact with the either the spring or the shock resistant stops on the coupler. The impact between the driveshaft pins and both the spring and stops may be audible from outside the vehicle.

This is no different from the sound that may be heard when a solid coupler has been worn down to the point of requiring replacement. The Pin holes on the coupler for either the drive shaft pins or the input shaft pins become enlarged or elongated to the point where impact can be heard.

Originally Posted by Modern07

...and is obviously an annoying problem to many many owners of cars with the LSA engine otherwise the issue would not have been raised hundreds of times, ..

It's only annoying to some. You said yourself, you never heard it. I heard it in the beginning but approaching 16,000 miles, It's gone. Even with my ear inches away from the snout. Others may not be so lucky.

Originally Posted by Modern07

...people would not have had superchargers replaced under warranty so many times etc etc etc..

We on the forums are a limited pool. Look at the number of ZL1's produced versus how many participate in the forums. Many times those who join the forum do so to learn how to complain about, address or correct a problem they PERCEIVE.

So, unless you have solid numbers of how many superchargers were replaced under warranty for a valid problem associated with these couplers, the argument is moot.

Out of some 10,000 ZL1's and I don't know how many CTS-Vs produced what is the incidence of warranty replacements and how much money would it have cost EATON to honor those warranties. Ever heard of a RECALL? If a product was sufficiently faulty to warrant a high enough number of warranty replacements that it was no longer profitable to deliver products without a redesign, you can be sure we'd be discussing the "R" word.

Originally Posted by Modern07

When changing pulleys you also lose the warranty so changing the supercharger for free to get rid of the issue is no longer an option - but changing to a solid isolator without the spring gets rid of the noise and costs nothing more than $60.

THIS IS TRUE!!! Changing to a brand new solid coupler will immediately end the noise.

Originally Posted by Modern07

It would make NO sense not to change it given this fact..

If this "fact" is the limit of your concern, I cannot argue.

If you value the quietness of your coupler over the long term durability and noise from your timing gears, then the choice is yours as an individual and in no way makes it the "smart" thing to do for anyone else.

Originally Posted by Modern07

This is why all the performance shops change it when changing pulleys.?

Get real. They MARKET it, because we BUY it. We buy it to shut the coupler up with less regard to the impact and increased wear of our rotor gear teeth than to the noises that don't impress our friends. We also buy it because we are afraid of the damage they show us pictures of.

Originally Posted by Modern07

Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

HAHA really???

So easy a caveman can understand...

NOISE
Spring loaded coupler noisy in beginning, get quieter later.
Solid coupler quiet in the beginning get noisy later.

Caveman say "don't know which better."

WARRANTY
Both couplers covered under GM's 5yr/100,000, if installed at EATON factory.

Caveman say "both same, none better"

APPEARANCE
Coupling cavity internal appearance after some miles using spring loaded coupler.

Caveman say "ooh no, look very bad. Cave look dirty, maybe need something better" to keep cave clean.

CUSTOMER SUPPORT
Caveman who sells supercharger cave says, "Dirty cave not problem, "don't worry, me fix if break for 5 winters or until you reach the end of land and back.

Caveman who sell solid couplers says, "Caveman who sell supercharger like stars in sky, stupid. Me have magic rock with holes, magic rock with holes fix all your problems" "Many other caveman sell magic rock with holes for many winters. Magic Rock with holes better."

Caveman ask. How long you fix if magic rock with holes cause problem.

Caveman who sells magic rock with holes says "I tell you later, buy magic rock with holes."

Caveman ask why magic rock with holes better? Caveman who sell magic rock with holes say "Ever see dirty cave?"

Helpful caveman hears caveman selling magic rock with holes and tell caveman, "Magic rock with holes guarantee of nothing except making cave work harder, and get old faster. "

Cavemen who buy magic rock with holes call helpful caveman "Asshole Smarty pants" who pick on nice caveman who sell magic rock with holes.

Bottom line.

A solid coupler is quiet in the beginning but causes more stress to your rotor gears. As it ages, noise will result.

A coupler with a spring absorbs shock and IS better for the long term serviceability of your supercharger even with a new pulley, because its purpose is to protect your rotor gears from the vibration transmitted by your crank.

If you care about the long term serviceability of your supercharger either with or without a pulley and with or without a warranty, keep the spring loaded coupler.

If you care about what your friends think of your noisy supercharger, or what the snout/shaft look like on the inside buy a solid coupler.

The argument becomes not about which coupler is better but who has better reason to keep or change the coupler.

I don't like the noise and will quiet it at all costs, or
I like my supercharger to last as long as possible.

What's left for caveman to understand?

[joes407]

this caveman say stoned or not that sh*t is funny!

[silverds]

Originally Posted by 29er

i'm pretty shure that, those groves are allready made for the spring to sit in .since it has 3 doll pins to make it hold in place.-the pulley--

if it was really worn out, those grooves would be shiny not black. when metal wears against metal it polish itself so ;--and if it has heat damaged it will be blueish color -- it's not the spring who made the grooves.it's machined like that. i'm convinced.

EEK. Look up Fretting and false-brinelling.

[Silverguardrail]

Originally Posted by silverds

Rust is also known as ferric oxide or iron oxide. Ferric oxide (Iron oxide) has very little abrasive effect. When pulverized, washed and decanted, it is turned into crocus or red rouge for cutting and Polishing metal commonly refereed to as "jeweler's rouge", "red rouge", or simply rouge. It is used to put the final polish on metallic jewellry and lenses, and historically as a cosmetic.

But the process that makes this "rustlike" powder is called fretting. It is not the same as what causes rust as it requires no moisture. Fretting damage in steel can be identified by the presence of a pitted surface and fine 'red' iron oxide dust reminiscent of cocoa powder. Strictly this debris is not "rust" as its production requires no water. The particles are much harder than the steel surfaces in contact, so abrasive wear is inevitable; however, particulates are not required to initiate fret.

The contact movement between the spring and the shaft causes mechanical wear and material transfer at the surface, often followed by oxidation of both the metallic debris and the freshly exposed metallic surfaces. Because the oxidized debris is usually much harder than the surfaces from which it came, it often acts as an abrasive agent that increases the rate of both fretting and a mechanical wear called false brinelling.

So we already know that EATON states, and warranties, the galling or "false brinelling" of the shaft is intended and limited. It is limited because the amount of compression of the spring in the Isolator is limited. If the spring can only compress to a limited extent, than the damage it can cause by fretting against the shaft is also limited. Eventually the spring will compress completely with little to no abbrasion against the shaft and fit inside the brinelled groves like your fingers fit into a molded pistol grip.

This is precicely the reason why pictures of a galled (false-brinelled) shaft and a dirty finger mean nothing more than somebody removed the supercharger snout and took pictures of a broken-in coupling. It is not the reason to do anything other than ooh and ahh like you just put on x-ray glasses for the first time.

Great read, technical info that I can understand, thanks

[05stram]

I understand the reason for the spring loaded coupling and the reason they changed from the solid coupling. The center shaft is more durable than the three pins which have to wear either the pin or the coupling on the solid and therefore they provided a shock absorber to prevent the wear. What I do not understand is the band aid approach to the fix. I mean come on they could of came up with a better isolator than the open spring version they have in there. Maybe it had to do with the rotational mass of enclosing the spring and creating lag or load on the belt. I don't know but I can see a lot of unhappy people down the road if the solid one granades or splits the end of the rotor.

[Modern07]

Silverds - nice story - but you have yet to show ONE SINGLE FAILURE of a supercharger caused by changing to a solid coupler.

You keep saying it increases wear and will lead to problems, but you have nothing to prove this and back your story up.

Until you have solid proof with facts, no matter how well constructed you believe your argument to be, it is fatally flawed.

What is a fact is that changing to the solid coupler eliminates the rattle noise.

What is also fact is that this noise has prompted people to replace entire superchargers because it is that annoying.

A final fact is that changing to a solid coupler costs $60 - hardly a significant sum of money.

They are the facts that I have brought to the table.

Now it is your turn to bring your facts to the table - I've heard enough of your opinion - now all I'm interested in are facts - and by facts I mean examples of superchargers that have failed as a direct result of changing to this solid coupler.

If you can bring that to the table then you are in business - and given that there are hundreds upon hundreds of people that have been using this coupler since 2009, along with many manufacturers such as ford using the solid coupler from the factory (GT500) then surely if your opinion is correct then finding just ONE example should not be too difficult.

I shall await your facts eagerly.

[Al C.]

Eaton and GM Engineers have stated that switching to a solid coupler will reduce
the life of the sc. How much, who knows.. Read somewhere diminishes sc life by 30%.. This is something that only time will tell, but the spring coupler
is there for a reason.. It's the noise or rattle, not the wear on the shaft that's the problem.. It's owners beware.

[Brownster]

Originally Posted by Modern07

Silverds - nice story - but you have yet to show ONE SINGLE FAILURE of a supercharger caused by changing to a solid coupler.

You keep saying it increases wear and will lead to problems, but you have nothing to prove this and back your story up.

Until you have solid proof with facts, no matter how well constructed you believe your argument to be, it is fatally flawed.

What is a fact is that changing to the solid coupler eliminates the rattle noise.

What is also fact is that this noise has prompted people to replace entire superchargers because it is that annoying.

A final fact is that changing to a solid coupler costs $60 - hardly a significant sum of money.

They are the facts that I have brought to the table.

Now it is your turn to bring your facts to the table - I've heard enough of your opinion - now all I'm interested in are facts - and by facts I mean examples of superchargers that have failed as a direct result of changing to this solid coupler.

If you can bring that to the table then you are in business - and given that there are hundreds upon hundreds of people that have been using this coupler since 2009, along with many manufacturers such as ford using the solid coupler from the factory (GT500) then surely if your opinion is correct then finding just ONE example should not be too difficult.

I shall await your facts eagerly.

I don't have a dog in this fight but DAMUUUUM,this sure is entertaining!
My car has a light rattle at idle but WTF it has a warranty.
If it had a loud rattle it would get replaced.

Are y'all trying for a Reality Show?( Hatfields v. McCoy's).

Yes,I'am a Redneck!

[Modern07]

Originally Posted by Al C.

Eaton and GM Engineers have stated that switching to a solid coupler will reduce
the life of the sc. How much, who knows.. Read somewhere diminishes sc life by 30%.. This is something that only time will tell, but the spring coupler
is there for a reason.. It's the noise or rattle, not the wear on the shaft that's the problem.. It's owners beware.

Where have they stated this?

The only person I have heard this statement from is a recently departed forum vendor who quite frankly I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw him , and who installs pistons the wrong way round and thinks it's OK I.e. his technical advice is not worth sh!t!

And if that's really the case then why do Ford use a solid coupler in the GT500?

I agree it's the noise that's the issue not the shaft wear (although where do the metal shavings from the wear down go?) - but if you can get rid of the noise for $60 it seems a no brainer (if you've already lost your warranty) - this would change if somebody has proof of a supercharger failure caused by a solid coupler - but nobody does - or at least not that I've seen - and that's what I'm asking for proof of here.

Nobody here is arguing that people should change out this coupler in isolation - that would be silly - it is simply a $60 part to change out when the pulleys are changed and the warranty has been voided already, and it is only to counteract a known rattle problem.

[MichaelH]

This is some interesting stuff on both ends. Im actually having lethal racing do a package on my car this fall/winter and it used a solid isolater. Although I plan on upgrading my supercharger anyways so im not really to concerned. Although I will say my engine bay sounds very loud I do only have 1500 miles though

[Al C.]

Originally Posted by Modern07

Where have they stated this?

The only person I have heard this statement from is a recently departed forum vendor who quite frankly I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw him , and who installs pistons the wrong way round and thinks it's OK I.e. his technical advice is not worth sh!t!

And if that's really the case then why do Ford use a solid coupler in the GT500?

I agree it's the noise that's the issue not the shaft wear (although where do the metal shavings from the wear down go?) - but if you can get rid of the noise for $60 it seems a no brainer (if you've already lost your warranty) - this would change if somebody has proof of a supercharger failure caused by a solid coupler - but nobody does - or at least not that I've seen - and that's what I'm asking for proof of here.

Nobody here is arguing that people should change out this coupler in isolation - that would be silly - it is simply a $60 part to change out when the pulleys are changed and the warranty has been voided already, and it is only to counteract a known rattle problem.

Ed, GM engineer.

The torsional isolator is used in the CTSv LSA engine to isolate potential gear rattle noise during idle. The isolator contains a torsional spring that fits over the shaft. Purpose of the shaft is to distribute the stresses in the torsional spring. As the spring goes thru its travel, the inside of the coils can contact the shaft. The spring material is intentionally harder than the shaft which by design results in visual witness marks and/or limited wear on the shaft. The witness marks and/or limited wear is expected and has been observed on all the Eaton component durability tests, GM engine and vehicle durability tests and on customer vehicles with no impact on the functionality of the spring and isolator. The shaft and isolator are in a sealed cavity, separate from the rest of the supercharger and engine.


Q: Will this shaft wear harm my engine?
A: No. The visible wear will not damage the engine. The supercharger and the engine were tested and successfully validated to meet all GM durability requirements…which are much more severe than any customer usage.

Q: What causes this wear?
A: The isolator contains a torsional spring that fits over the shaft. The purpose of the shaft is to better distribute the stresses in the torsional spring and prolong its life. As the spring goes thru its travel, the inside of the coils can contact the shaft. The spring is a harder material than the shaft…so that when there is contact, the spring will not potentially break. If the spring breaks, then the torsional isolator function is lost.

Q: Can the shaft wear all the way thru and broken pieces get into my engine?
A: No. The travel on the spring that is contacting the shaft is limited. It cannot wear all the way thru the shaft. The shaft and isolator are in a sealed cavity, separate from the rest of the supercharger and engine. It cannot be ingested into the engine.

Q: Can worn bits or wear debris from the shaft get into my engine?
A: No. Again, the torsional isolator is in a SEALED cavity inside the supercharger. The seals on the bearings have not been compromised and wear debris is fully contained in this cavity.

Q: Why is the isolator design better than a solid coupling?
A: The torsional isolator does precisely that – it isolates an even more objectionable gear rattle noise that was being heard inside the vehicle cabin at all times during idle. The solid coupling will not eliminate this noise.

Q: My car is now quiet after I replaced the isolator w/ a solid coupling…how do you explain that?
A: If the ONLY modification was the replacement of the isolator w/ solid coupling…then it’s unlikely that it’s completely quiet. Most likely, you WILL have the timing gear rattle noise inside the cabin. Initially, it may sound better because the random “knocking” noise outside the vehicle is reduced…but you’ve now traded that noise for the gear rattle noise. Now…if you also replaced the induction system and exhaust system w/ louder aftermarket/performance parts…then it’s no longer an accurate comparison because you may not hear gear rattle over the increased exhaust and other noises in the cabin at idle. By the way, the torsional isolator is not a serviceable part…and removing the front inlet to replace with another part has warranty implications.

Q: Will GM be releasing a service fix for the shaft wear?
A: No. The current torsional isolator design does not diminish or compromise the durability or longevity of the supercharger or the engine. It has been fully validated to that effect. It also provides a benefit to the customer in terms of reduced noise at idle inside the vehicle…where the driver and passengers will be located during vehicle operation.