My LLT engine is blown on my 2LT, any recommendations?

[kleif]

if you want you could still trade it in on an upgrade without taking such a big hit on it

[Camarodriver]

My faith in GM is being tested now... (long post, story length)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To keep everyone informed of why I have not posted about this in the past week or so is that I have been in active discussions with GM. I did not want to bias anything that was being said and I have been keeping quiet about where this is all at as we exchange emails and calls. We have now reached a fork in the road and both parties are taking the weekend to consider our mutual options.

To summarize how we got here, I will refresh everyone's memory in one, succinct post.

I took delivery of this 2010 Camaro 2LT in December 2009. I drive it all year round in my fair city of Montreal, Canada. Yes, winter as well. As I took delivery of the car because of serious issues with my poor dealer, I took delivery as winter started. It drove perfectly, started reliably, ran efficiently and had lovely torque and handling through the amazing 6 speed manual tranny. The traction control and stability program coupled with an awesome limited-slip differential paired with 18" heritage specials' all worked together through a typical Quebec winter. Spring came and the 19" aluminium's went on, and many trips around my hometown and longer trips took place without incident until the end of summer in August 2010.

This is where a tick tick tick, valve lash like sound that I had always heard started getting louder. Upon researching on this fine forum and the Internet, it appeared that this tick tick tick was normal for an LLT V6 as it was direct injection and sounded a little "diesel" like as it was injecting gas directly into the cylinder at top dead center where the intake then power stroke are due. In fact, this allows for an amazing accuracy in measuring the fuel air mixture and offers superior power per cubic inch of displacement to the older technologies of carburation or traditional fuel injection. All that sold me away from a V8 like I had in my 75 Camaro (and several other GM cars) to this modern, high feature engine. I digress...

When that tick tick tick turned to clack clack clack, I brought it in to a GM dealer. The mechanic that pulled that engine out along with the engine cradle and driveline to quickly tell me to expect a brand new crate engine with oil in it, ready to turn over. My wife was freaking out at the sight of all my cars' guts on the ground, but I assured her that the new engine would be exactly as new and all is perfectly fine. The car had not yet turned over 10,000 KMS at this point and I had been driving the car for only 8 months. They assured me that I would be taken care of quickly, as they contacted GM's District Service Manager to approve the new engine. The bearing on cylinder #1 had "spun" and the crank, bearing, connecting rods and who knows what else had to be replaced.

If you want to see the pictures and are new to this thread, go to the beggining to see the guts of an LLT as it was torn down to the naked shortblock by a tech that had never re-assembled one of these engines in the past. He was a good tech, but this attempt on this high feature engine was to be his first attempt at a full rebuild. I saw my pistons, haphazardly spread about the shop steel table, all my parts on shelves an on the floor. Nothing was marked, nothing was numbered. I left a digital camera for them to take more pictures, none were taken other than my own.

Upon receiving a call from my dealership a few days later, telling me that she was actually at the dealership denying me a new engine in lieu of a repair. This unfair, swift verdict infuriated me and I went immediately to meet with her at the dealership. At first we talked about this decision, but in the end it got more heated as I was being ganged up on by two GM reps and three dealership reps and even though I argued and defended my position, they did not budge. It was to be a repair only. The justification was that a repair would "only" cost $4000 CDN and a new engine would cost $10,000. I could pony up $6000 if I chose to basically be back to where I was a mere 8 months ago...grossly unfair, totally uncool and oh so very un-Camaro...

It took three weeks to "repair" my engine. I asked for a loaner, they claimed to have none. I drove my wife's Honda fit (without a single repair since 2006, I might add, other than brakes and oil) for that period of time. When I went to collect the car on that third Friday I just made it in time as the cab I took chose the long and profitable route to the dealership and I got there 10 minutes prior to the service areas closing. I inspected the car, fired her up twice in front of the service tech while still in the garage and let it run,checking things out. Listening to the engine, now missing it's charichtaristic tick tick tick I had lived with since I got the car. Wow, it did sound much more like a normal engine!

The service clerk started closing all the garage doors, so I got the message and eaked my car just outside the garage door and he promptly closed the door behind me. I then received a call from (ironically) a mechanic buddy of mine that had inspected my car previously and just then the check engine light came on! I hung up with my friend and ran into the service area and all techs had literally left, out the back door! GRRRR! Upon complaining to the receptionist in sales she basically told me to come back monday. I stormed out, fuming.

Well i must say that it drove fine and had more power than I had experienced before! The tick tick tick was gone and I was no longer affraid of revving it beyond 3000rpm and I had been as it sounded great and with clean-sounding power, no tickety-tick-tick at 2-3 grand, nice! Maybe all was indeed ok after all...well, no. I got the car home in 10 minutes and parked it and shut off the ignition. I started it up again, just to check and it started sluggishly, sputtering and misfiring a whole lot, shaking the car about before stalling. I gave a moment and tried again where it started normally. WTF? I left a message to the service manager, expressing my dissatisfaction with this obviously poor attention to a proper repair and I told him to expect me Monday morning with the car.

That weekend it drove well much of the time, with the CEL going off on it's own but it started sluggishly several times that weekend and then that next week it died on me several times while trying to startup the car and sometimes while driving. The check engine light went back on and off and on again and had major problems even starting the car much of the time. This wasn't right, especially the part where I am driving along with my two young children and wife and the car sputters to a stop on the side of the road. (to see a video of this, just seach this very thread)

I tried several times to bring in the car, insisting on a loaner this time to meet 4 days of don't bring it in yet, our engine guy has another car on his lift, I don't have a loaner yet, blahblahblah, I brought it in 10 days after picking it up, which was 4 days longer than I cared to as it was no longer driveable in a reliable way. I was only taking it on short trips around town where I didn't need to take the highway, as I couldn't risk stalling in highway traffic, obviously.

BUUUT, before bringing it in, I dropped a garage where I service my two other cars where I paid for a quick scan job to see just what engine CEL codes have been generated "lately". I got two full pages of error codes of random misfiring, cam phasing/timing issues and multiple sensor errors. All this = bad. I consulted an automotive engineer that is a good friend of mine as well as my lawyer. I started to build a case for Camvap (Canadian Automotive Arbitration) from that moment on. Find these images posted into this link. They are something NO Camaro (or any car, for that matter) should ever have to see, especially after only 8 MONTHS of car ownership! This was UNACCEPTIBLE!

I finally was able to bring back the car and took an Impala loaner (pretty nice car these days, I must say, albeit plain looking) Upon several calls to the dealer, they claimed that it had some error codes but they cleared them all and the car was running fine. BTW, they wanted thier loaner back in two days, as the Camaro was running "fine" and it was starting up perfectly, now that them pesky codes were cleared. I informed him that I was a little more aware than some car owners and know how ODBC2 computers work. Codes can be cleared but that most certainly doesn't fix the problems! They told me they would test it for one more day then they could no longer justify a loaner any more. GRRR! FINE, said I, see you tomorrow...

I called them in the morning to try to squeeze them into my crazy day and they sheepishly admitted that they had most certainly seen the problem and in fact were having trouble getting it out of the garage right now so I could now keep the loaner. GEEZ ( I actually chose a different expression at the time, but will refrain in this public forum ~ahem~ ) My automotive engineer friend told me that this was basically "not good" and that additional damage has now occured and this engine was heading "down" quick. In his professionaly opinion, a new engine should have been specified before the badly rebuilt one was put back in. He was sure they hadn't sent it out for balancing or anything appropriate, but just slapped it back together best they knew how. Was this fair? Not to me, the consumer, certainly. I now wanted out of this car.

Since then, I have been in discussions with the dealer and GM to approve a "buyback" scenario as this is the only fair option, in my opinion. Actually, in the opinion of many professionals that I have consulted, some of which enlightened me to the rules here in Canada where if a car has less than 25,000 KMS and less than 365 days of usage, we are entitled to the same "lemon law" protection that is offered in the USA in most states. This is not, however, what is currently being offered...

The dealer told me I would get a paltry $20,000 for my car, GM would kick in $4000 only. That would not even pay for what was still owed on the car as I still owed $24,650 CDN. This being the case because on my car and accessories I originally paid $44,000 for my 2LT, but I traded in my GM SUV, sold my 1975 Camaro and dumped down Visa and cash deposits totalling$14,000. I also have paid $528 monthly since this January through to September and in 2 days another payment will be whisked out of my bank account. All this is GONE in the new trade in deal, and I still owe on the under valued trade in... what is wrong with this picture? I am being ripped off in a big way. I pointed out to the dealer that on GM's very own Optimum Certified used GM cars, you couldn't find a 2LT with three times the mileage for less than $29,000! A lowly LS goes for $25,000 with NO options! What is going on here? I am being taken advantage of in a terrible way!

I am willing and wanting to buy an SS now as this V6 no longer interests me (for obvious reasons) and I am prepared to pay the retail difference for a new 2011 Camaro 2SS/RS. The dealer claims that I will get a new one at cost and the $4000 from GM plus a $1000 credit for a 2010 (demo that he has on the floor) would be a "great" deal. It didn't seem quite possible, as I was being offered only $20,000 for my car with now 10,700 KM's on the odometer. After much haranging and delays from teh dealer they came up with numbers yesterday. I would have to pay $43000 for a 2SS/RS which is just about retail. I would then have to start over, paying a 60 month term with a whopping $860 monthly payment. No just where is the deal there? There is none, I am being screwed.

I must say, however, that GM's corporate review exec has been very reasonable and seems to be working for me in this case. It has not resulted in any concrete movement in the overall deal, but she is very nice and professional. In fact, far more professional that the dealer in all this, and she has even complained of a lack of co-operation from the dealer! She outright sighed loudly when I told her the numbers that I had been quoted from the dealer! I had to write it all down as I asked the dealer to email me his quote and he (to this point) has not sent anything is writing. I wonder why? Is he trying to test me? See if I will go for it? I aint' stupid and I am opening a file with Camvap, but only next Tuesday, because this fine GM corporate review exec is actually going to try to see if they will opt for a buyback in my case. She is actually in agreement that it's the "right" thing to do, but her superiors are not budging. I guess I will require 3rd party arbitration to "budge" them on my behalf. What a shame.

I pleaded a strong case to this exec, putting it all in one last friendly yet firm email that arbitration will simply delay the inevitable. She told me nicely that I may have no other choice as she cannot seem to get anyone to hear her. Well, I am hoping to hear from all of you as I am pretty down about all this...

I have posted this large letter not only for my benefit as it's good to purge all this in this fine forum of fine people, but I am also asking for help. Any help. If the message can go out that I am in this position, if proper pressure can be heard now by the people to GM Canada, I urge you to mention it. Even if only ti increase the hits on my two threads about this all social media buzz helps! Scott Settlemire was kind enough to place a call from GM USA to GM Canada to ask for proper consideration in this bizzare situation and I cannot thank him enough for getting me an ear at the highest levels as I beleive it's my only chance, my only shot at a new car. The person the Fbodfather got me in touch with reports directly to the president of GM Canada, so I know his ear has heard the story!

Why, General, why are you being so unfair to me? This is not right! This is unfair, this is NOT the GM I have grown up believing in! Please help me out here, don't force me to go in front of a judge and make you look bad, take this opportunity to do the RIGHT thing and take this car back and let me buy another one, I don't want a Mustang! I want a CAMARO!

I thank anyone who has taken the time to read my ramblings, I hope it helps anyone else out there that also has a V6 LLT. Check your engines! You may also have a bad bearing! I have spoken to another Camaro5 member, Darkness, who is going through the same thing in New York and he is scared that the same crap will be his problem also. I have read elsewhere on the forums that others have heard about this as well. If you know of ANYONE with an LLT in trouble, please PM me, post it or just call me! I appreciate your time and efforts to you all, in advance.

Thanks for your camaraderie, it's what Camaro stands for after all!

eB

(not spell checked, not proof read, just blurted out in one sitting. Please excuse any spelling or grammar errrors...)
Attached Images

__________________

[DarkneSS]

Read your whole post, I'll be PMing you soon just been busy these past few days. I'm definitely following closely as basically the same thing is happening to me. 16 days and they JUST opened my engine up, which is a problem already because you and I don't deserve rebuilt motors at such low mileage.
I really cannot believe they won't just give you a new car! Honestly if the same thing happens to me giving two people two V6s is like them throwing a grain of rice out the window from their pile of wealth. Why ruin our experiences with GM and lose two customers and potentially more as we tell everyone we can about this problem?

[CaliMattRS]

Bump

[CaliMattRS]

Read this thread, support a fellow camaro owner! Iphow would you feel if the same happened to you! Bump everyone!

[Caspers2SSRS]

................and GM if you don't believe that folks (Like Me) aren't paying close attention to the aforementioned matter, that have supported your uplifting from the rubble and edge of economic ruin, you're sadly mistaken.:( BuMp in support of the OP! Good Luck !

[GMGP5X]

As a new camaro V6 owner very interested in the outcome of this. GM do the owner right and use it as a marketing spot.

[Camarodriver]

Thanks, Caspers for the multiple bumps and Calimat for the words of support! Thanks to everyone for chiming in! Companies simply must be made aware that the days of one single consumers' voice is over! The power of social media will expose the truth to all!

I have posted this thread not only to ask for help and support from others but also to help others that may require this information to help their cause should they share my plight with this bearing issue. I know that Darkness is also currently in my situation and I will help him out as much as I can. He nor I deserve to be expected to drive around a car that has had this traumatic a defect, right from the start of this cars' ownership.

I expect news tomorrow, I will keep you all advised.

eB

[b4z]

Is it a bad crankshaft position sensor?

[chazysoccer11]

BUMP!!! I have read both of your threads closely and stayed up to date with your posts. This is not right at all! GM! Do the right thing and just help this customer out! The customer is the lifeblood of every company, and without them there would be no GM. GM has the most support from it's customers than any other car manufacturer in the world and in order to keep the support of the customer you need to satisfy them. You are much better than that GM. You have many eyes and ears watching and listening on this situation.bonne chance eB.

[DarkneSS]

Originally Posted by b4z

Is it a bad crankshaft position sensor?

My previous car has these problems and I can assure you the problems we are having absolutely cannot be caused by a camshaft or crank shaft position sensor.

Edit, been without my car since the 16th of September now with STILL no word on what exactly the problem is.

[DroptopZ]

I wish you luck. :( If you were in the US I'd have more suggestions, but I don't know what Canadian laws entail. Do you have a Better Business Bureau? You could try filing a complaint with them if you do....

[chazysoccer11]

http://www.bbb.org/canada/ better business bureau

[Smoky10]

This truly is a bad situation and hopefully it will work out for you sooner than later.