My thoughts on all of ZL1 and GT500 discussions going on.

[VR Baron]

I posted elsewhere, according to a Mustang friend, Gt500 will be in the $70,000 range. Accurate? we'll see in 2013.

[IcePick06]

Originally Posted by VR Baron

I posted elsewhere, according to a Mustang friend, Gt500 will be in the $70,000 range. Accurate? we'll see in 2013.

If Ford plans on challenging the Z06 with their 200 mph claim and the performance around the track mirrors the Z06 then this projection may be accurate...time will tell. Remember the GT500 is Ford's top performance car. The ZL1 and ZR1 are GM's top dawgs as they have different styling and seating arrangements, so ford may be going after the throne but I always see camaro and mustang being competitors (not corvette and mustang)

[CAMAROZL1]

GT500? 650 HP? SO WHAT?

C'mon guys.....are we really worried about this?

The F guys making the 'stang are worried about the CAMARO if anything.

Case in point:

305 HP 2010 V6 Camaro WHIPPED the weak 210 hp V6 'stang.

425 HP 2010 V8 Camaro WHIPPED the weak 315 hp V8 'stang.

As usual, Ford guys got scared and had to up the numbers, and played catch up. Same was the case in the Silverado HD vs Ford Super Duty truck buuuut that's another story.

In other words GM is cranking out the best cars ever and Ford is falling flat in their face and rushing just to keep up.

Case in point:

The 2012 Camaro ZL1.

580 HP. 556HP.
THIRD GENERATION MAGNETIC RIDE CONTROL SUSPENSION

So much MORE technology is packed into this monster that can be found here, thanks to Radz28:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177469

The 2013 'stang?

650 HP. OK, fine that's great.....what else? That's right..... not much else. Well there is Bilstein shocks.....with just two modes compared to THREE on the Camaro which is Tour, Sport, AND Track.

You need to add on a "track package" to the 'stang to have coolers for engine oil, the rear differential, and the transmission oil.

The Camaro has it- STANDARD.

Also......


Chevrolet has two weapons in its arsenal. Do NOT forget about the...

CORVETTE.

The mustang has NOTHING on the Corvette. The Corvette GrandSport spanks it in every single way imaginable.

Being lighter and and better engineered has its advantages. Not to mention it gets most of its technology from the

Corvette C6R racecar.

Then there's the ZO6. After that, the ZR1.

Bottom line.............................................. ...........

The ZL1 is more than just a "numbers" car. It is a vehicle that can do everything INCREDIBLY well.

It delivers the full experience that a 'stang cannot do from the factory stock.

I applaud Ford's effort, but it still falls short.

Long live the Chevrolet Camaro ZL1.

[GREY03COBRA]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

Not even sure where to start on this one....

You may have read about the 60s- but reading about it and living it are two different things.

In 1960, Plymouth introduced the Valiant - an economy car. Ford introduced the Falcon - also an economy car. Chevrolet introduced the Corvair - also an economy car - the difference was that the Corvair was a blast to drive. It offered European Styling with superior handling to anything else that the domestics were building (other than Corvette) The fly in the ointment? You needed to watch tire pressure. 18 in the front - 32 in the back - if you put 32 in the front- -well - not good! Golden Bear talks about the Futura as a response to the Monza - I'll let you read that part.

Pony obviously comes from the Mustang - but it's a term used loosely. The official industry term for this segment has been "Regular Sport" - some would say "muscle" -- some would say "Pony" -- and you are correct in that the Camaro was another entry in the competitive market in late 1966 -- there was a difference, however -- the Camaro was an all-new platform which gave the car better handling - but also a better -- and quieter - ride. One still needs to look at Firebird and Corvette sales during that period (if, in fact, the argument is 'sales'...)

As to the Mustang II - Chevy approached the performance market in three different ways - Camaro, the Monza family, and Corvette.

The 4th gen Camaro (and Firebird) wasn't 'bad' - in fact you may recall that it had segment leading straight line performance and handling superior to Mustang. Further, there was the Corvette. (remember - the Mustang is Ford's performance car - GM has two cars in answer to the Mustang)

The new Camaro was never designed as "Retro" - the team felt that it was not appropriate to make a 'retro' Camaro -- so a modern Camaro was designed -- with some design cues from Camaros past. (In fact now and then I get a complaints that we should have done a 'retro' Camaro rather than a modern Camaro -- ) You may find the book "Camaro - the Return of an American Legend" by Larry Edsall a very interesting read.

Thanks for the info. Its kinda like reading about a war from both sides. Each side has a slightly different perspective. Just for the record, I don't think the Camaro is a bad car. In fact, I have a lot of respect for them. I think the ZL1 is a great looking car and it will give the GT500 all that it can handle.

I'm a product of the 80's and I grew up with the fox body 5.0's kicking Camaro butt. (From my perspective anyway) Then it was the Mustangs turn to take a beating from the 4th gen Camaro. You have to admit though that Ford has been on a roll as of late. With the 03/04 Cobras, GT500's, and Boss cars. Its good to see Chevy and even Dodge create better and better cars for us to own and the rivalry is stronger than ever.

[Wondering]

Originally Posted by hv92

If you can afford a Z11... I am absolutely sure you can afford a used 2010 or even 2011 Nissan GTR... It's what.. maybe 10-15,000 more?? Then you can rape everything on the street AND track. PROBLEM SOLVED.

Sorry to get off topic.....

But the 2013 GT-R will do 0-60 in a mind bending 2.72 sec....1/4 mile in 11.0

Price around $100k. Not fair to compare it to a ZL1,or GT 500 for that matter. But it is a direct competitor to the Z06 & ZR1.

[Wondering]

Originally Posted by Scarrzz

Well we (GM) should flippin' buy one, take it over, put a very well respected non-GM driver in it and tell him to show us what their best is. Record everything, document everything, and then dare F-word to do better.

They still couldn't, and that's why they don't want to compete with ZL1 on a road with curves & hills.




Edit: I know we're talking about next year's model and we can't buy it yet. I will indeed have to wait for that comparison.

Wouldn't be the first time.....Porsche did this with the first year(2009) GT-R. With their best driver,they were only able to get within ~10 sec of what Nissan claimed.

We all know Ford has been testing the GT500 at the 'ring & I see one of two possibilities:

1) They were able to best the ZL1 & are waiting for an appropriate time to drop that bomb on us.

2) They were unsuccessful to best the ZL1 and are going to go with what they have...hoping they can better the ZL1's 0-60 & 1/4.

Which one is it? I have no idea,but if I had to guess,I'd say it's #2.

[2ndCamaro79]

Originally Posted by GREY03COBRA

Thanks for the info. Its kinda like reading about a war from both sides. Each side has a slightly different perspective. Just for the record, I don't think the Camaro is a bad car. In fact, I have a lot of respect for them. I think the ZL1 is a great looking car and it will give the GT500 all that it can handle.

I'm a product of the 80's and I grew up with the fox body 5.0's kicking Camaro butt. (From my perspective anyway) Then it was the Mustangs turn to take a beating from the 4th gen Camaro. You have to admit though that Ford has been on a roll as of late. With the 03/04 Cobras, GT500's, and Boss cars. Its good to see Chevy and even Dodge create better and better cars for us to own and the rivalry is stronger than ever.

hmmmmm, Cobra you might want to check out the motorweek video of the 86 IROC on youtube? Once Chevy put the 5.7 in the IROC it was down hill for the PONY till 2003.

[j.jones7]

I remember the Vmax The bike was ahead of its time and the motor sat mid chasis so it made the bike a wheelie monster. couldnt keep the front wheel on the ground and two many ameture rides where being hurt. lets hope that isnt the case with our high power vec or were going to pay the price. camaro 2.2 mustangs 2.1 and dodge 1.9

Originally Posted by SWAT

Remember the VMAX, in about 85 I think it was? Didn't they stop making it because there were many deaths associated with it?

[GREY03COBRA]

Originally Posted by 2ndCamaro79

hmmmmm, Cobra you might want to check out the motorweek video of the 86 IROC on youtube? Once Chevy put the 5.7 in the IROC it was down hill for the PONY till 2003.

I'll check it out. I had an '88 GT back in the day and never lost to a IROC or Z28 from that era.. Most or all of those IROC 5.7's were automatics. Again, that was my perspective..

[el ess A]

Originally Posted by 2ndCamaro79

hmmmmm, Cobra you might want to check out the motorweek video of the 86 IROC on youtube? Once Chevy put the 5.7 in the IROC it was down hill for the PONY till 2003.

It wasn't until the LT1 in the Camaro in 93 did the pony get its tail cut hard. In the 80s, the Mustang 5.0 was tough to beat.

But no matter what Ford does, IMO, there's a coolness factor you can never obtain in driving a Mustang. It's about the attitude. As long as that keeps the pony car engineers on its toes offering better stuff for us all, I'm all for it.

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by tooslow

If you're going to plagiarize the wiki, you should acknowledge your source.

Actually, the primary source of that information was from the following books and memory --

Mustang by Gary L. Witzenburg 1979
Mustang Encyclopedia by Consumer Guide 1982
Chevrolet In the Sixties by Robert Genat 1997

Wikipedia provides a quick secondary check of information and an easy way to get information into a post when primary sources, other than memory, are not readily at hand. I believe it's better to verify one's memory and details and post accurate information, rather than post misinformation.


Food for thought:

I think many would agree that coming off to others as a negative, disagreeable schoolmarm is not particularly becoming.

[DanSS24]

Originally Posted by CamaroSkooter

The new muscle car wars are definately awe inspiring. I'm just to see what happens when the ZL1 and GT500 come out and "too many self-indulgent wieners...with too much bloody money" (to quote Mr. Cage) go out and buy either one and have no idea how to handle a performance machine with that much power.

I seen a brand new SRT8 Challenger(still had dealer plates on it) at the body shop with front end damage. I asked the shop guy what happened and he told me that the owner hit the wall when he drove it off the ship container. I guess he under estimated how much power it really had.

[2012ZL1]

Originally Posted by DanSS24

I seen a brand new SRT8 Challenger(still had dealer plates on it) at the body shop with front end damage. I asked the shop guy what happened and he told me that the owner hit the wall when he drove it off the ship container. I guess he under estimated how much power it really had.

More like he can't drive. Being able to afford a car does not mean you are able to drive it.

[eric n]

CORRECT!

Originally Posted by BaylorCamaro

I think people need to take a minute and chill out! Look at what we have right now (especially during this economic time) it is pretty impressive to me. Despite the car industry suffering along with the economy. Ford, Chevy and even Dodge are doing some pretty amazing things with their respective sports/muscle cars and I them for that.

Now this iconic war between Ford and Chevy has gone on for such a long time and will continue to do so. Each side has their own fan boys that will defend their brand to the death, and that's just how it's going to be. I am all to used to this, the college I attend has a car club, and just about everyone in the club is a Ford person. I'll post things on our forum about GM/Chevy related things (usually Camaro) and I get so MUCH flak from them saying things as to how ugly it is, how over weight it is, blah blah blah. Most of the main posters on our forum have already graduated but still lurk the forums. However I have never seen a larger group of complete @$$holes and if you don't believe me, then PM and I'll give you a link. The point I'm making is you can really turn someone off when there is constant subjective bashing going on.

I think we all need to take a step back and try to be as objective as possible. The ZL1 is an amazing car and the best Camaro ever produced, with some amazing technology and you cannot argue with its impressive times around the Nurembergring. However, I'd like to also commend Ford with what they have done. One member said on here that there is no company that does more with less than Ford, and I agree. The 5.0 is damn impressive, the Boss is absolutely amazing and I have no doubt in my mind that the 2013 GT500 will be jaw dropping. However, we need to keep in mind the reason why these numbers keep getting better and better is because of the competition. I know this has been said countless times on here before, but I really believe it to be the truth.

Whether you're a Chevrolet, Ford or Dodge fan you have to be pretty impressed with what is going on in the industry. I know I sure am proud of the American Auto Industry right now! :flag2:

Anyways just my $0.02, take it for what it's worth.