Whats up with GM?

[Black5thgen]

After reading 4 pages of excuses I was able to get a good laugh from this thread. I agree with OP, I'm surprised GM hasn't done anything to upgrade the Camaro but when you sell 100,000 cars per year to people who care more about matching shoes than time slips you just laugh your way to the bank. OP you did the right thing and bought a Vette. Hold out hope for the 6th gen but don't hold your breath.

[Paco]

I love the camaro and the ZL1 but..

The whole "we sell more argument" is a matter of current popularity. The mustang S197 has been out since 05. 5 years ahead of the 5th gen. Its a tired design (2 facelifts but generally the same design)

The 5th gen is/was "fresh". Its still/was the "in" car for main stream. Car designs go through life cycles just like everything else. The mustang is going through a re-design in the next 1-2 years then I am sure that will be the "in" car. Its just a cycle

[90503]

Originally Posted by Black5thgen

After reading 4 pages of excuses I was able to get a good laugh from this thread. I agree with OP, I'm surprised GM hasn't done anything to upgrade the Camaro but when you sell 100,000 cars per year to people who care more about matching shoes than time slips you just laugh your way to the bank. OP you did the right thing and bought a Vette. Hold out hope for the 6th gen but don't hold your breath.

Well put, again, my thought is that 1/4 mile numbers are not something we will see as a reason for a heated/rivalry factory production Camaro......those drag strip days that meant popularity and sales have come and gone....

[FL1CK]

And it's another one of "those" threads...

[vrunner]

Originally Posted by 2ndCamaro79

Again, I loved the 4th gen Camaro/Firebird... I still when I see WS6 going down the road or a SS. When people stopped caring about performance is when we got the IRON DUKE in the Camaro.



Boy thats ugly NOT

WOW

LOL!!! I remember those!!! Never forget the fist time I opened a hood on a 3rd gen and was like WTF!!!

That T/A is awsome!!! I want to pick up another soon, just need to get a garage to keep it. I had a 99 30th T/A in 03 I loved.

[vrunner]

Originally Posted by VenomInside

I'll be honest. Back when the fourth gen's were out, I really didn't like the camaro all too much. I was in absolute love with the trans am's and ws6's that were out. Now those cars were MEAN. I used to have one.

The reason I bought my 5th gen was because there was a lack of T/A.

X2!!!!

[liquidsmoke]

Originally Posted by linc400

If you are a die hard Chevy fan, I can understand wanting Chevy to have the highest horsepower top dog. But the Camaro is not the only car GM makes, and there is so much more to it than that.

First, with one upping, where do you stop? 700 hp, 850, 1000? Modifying the car with more horsepower and then putting it into production takes a lot of money. Money that could be better spent elsewhere from a profit point of view.

Would it be better to spend several million developing an ultimate Mustang killer that will sell a few thousand a year, or a Camry, Accord fighter that will cost less to produce and sell 300,000 a year and keep them from needing another bailout?

Camaro is currently outselling Mustang and Challenger and the majority sold are V6 and SS, not even ZL1. So even among Camaro lovers it is not worth the extra expense. Plus back in the 1960's, you could come out with a high HP V8 for the Camaro, and also put it in the Nova, Chevelle, Malibu, put a detuned version in the Impala, wagons, etc. How much more use would such an engine get now? Can't see it going into a Cruze or Malibu.

Plus as previously pointed out, the Mustang is Ford's only performance car. At times, even stupidly so. GM realizes that the Corvette and Cadillac performance cars are more expensive than a Camaro, and as such, are expected to be faster/better.

Ford on the other hand refused to give a performance engine to the Thunderbird or Lincoln because they don't want anything to outperform the Mustang. This is just stupid. Mustang buyers would not be looking at a T-bird or Lincoln, but someone that paid $20K more for theirs would be quite annoyed to have a much cheaper Mustang running circles around them.

While I agree with pretty much all u said. I always wondered though, what would the sales look like if the V6 was the only model camaro. Prob still a lot, but I doubt they would be outselling the mustang, or chally.

Even though the flagship cars are expensive and low volume, you need to have them to prop up all the lesser models. They make the lesser models look better, kind of like some of the awesomeness of the flag cars rub off on the other models. And down the line find their way as features. Look at all the stuff on the zl1 borrowed from the vette and caddy. Some people even find comfort in the fact the v6 engine is the same one in a caddy. Like you know you are getting the same quality and care as the bigger dog, just not all the features.

So if the the zl1 and SS didn't exist, the camaro brand would be considered a joke, esp from the likes of ford and dodge fans. And thus less people would want one.

[J666]

Originally Posted by Fiftydriver

Plus, if you get a SS, you can add some add ons to it, top the 2013 shelby's performance for about the same price pretty easily.

Do you really think it's that easy? Do you know how much engineering and testing went into the new GT500?

[TPAJETSKI]

I think the only times the F-body out sold the mustang was when they were the slower car. They sold a ton of third gens and they were turds compared to the 5.0 fox bodies.

[Heaven_is_inferno_orange]

GM made us an incredible car that is safe, holds up well, and still performs. I see nothing to complain about.
Also the ZL1 is an all around track car. Not just a drag car. The beauty of the ZL1 is that it can perform on a road track, it can perform on a drag strip, and it can perform as a daily driver. I think GM did an outstanding job on the ZL1. They managed to give us a versitile badazz car that has the capabilty to do it all, wears the Camaro name, and still managed a decent price that base comes track ready. I see no down side to any of this. Let the ford fanboys pay around 70K to get a track ready car. Thats at least 10K a ZL1 buyer has in his pocket for mods.

The 4th gen vs 5th gen thing, I have one of each (2002 TA WS6 & 2011 SS). In my personal experiences with both cars the 4th gen, which I think is awesome and beautiful, just doesn't even come close to the 5th gen. It was awesome for its time and still has tons of potential for modding but it is definately no 5th gen. The ride, the handling, the power, the trunk space lol just dont compare. But that is the way it should be.

[BowtieBelle]

Originally Posted by Heaven_is_inferno_orange

GM made us an incredible car that is safe, holds up well, and still performs. I see nothing to complain about.

This.

The derp is strong in this thread.

[linc400]

Originally Posted by liquidsmoke

While I agree with pretty much all u said. I always wondered though, what would the sales look like if the V6 was the only model camaro. Prob still a lot, but I doubt they would be outselling the mustang, or chally.

Even though the flagship cars are expensive and low volume, you need to have them to prop up all the lesser models. They make the lesser models look better, kind of like some of the awesomeness of the flag cars rub off on the other models. And down the line find their way as features. Look at all the stuff on the zl1 borrowed from the vette and caddy. Some people even find comfort in the fact the v6 engine is the same one in a caddy. Like you know you are getting the same quality and care as the bigger dog, just not all the features.

So if the the zl1 and SS didn't exist, the camaro brand would be considered a joke, esp from the likes of ford and dodge fans. And thus less people would want one.

Very true, V6 only would not be the same. But the SS and ZL1 do exist, and the OP is still not happy.

They have given awesome performance to the Camaro compared to a decade ago. How much more can they spend time and money wise just to come up with a car just to outperform the top Mustang? The majority of Camaro owners are happy with the performance. And someone has to stop first in the HP race.

Anyone that interested in track times is going to be doing their own mods anyway. Ones that GM might not be able to do in a car sold to the general public. They have all kinds of government regulations and safety requirements to comply with that an individual owner does not. So it simply does not make sense for GM to put their efforts there when they have so many other vehicles to design, develop, and produce that will be much more profitable than a very low volume Mustang killer.

My own personal opinion is that if the Challenger and Camaro had been in the early design idea stages when the bailouts happened, neither would have been built. But both were getting close enough to production that it would have been a huge waste of money to cancel the projects. They need to be complying with CAFE which is getting more and more ridiculous, and neither car helps with that.

[ShowSStopper]

Originally Posted by linc400

Very true, V6 only would not be the same. But the SS and ZL1 do exist, and the OP is still not happy.

They have given awesome performance to the Camaro compared to a decade ago. How much more can they spend time and money wise just to come up with a car just to outperform the top Mustang? The majority of Camaro owners are happy with the performance. And someone has to stop first in the HP race.

Anyone that interested in track times is going to be doing their own mods anyway. Ones that GM might not be able to do in a car sold to the general public. They have all kinds of government regulations and safety requirements to comply with that an individual owner does not. So it simply does not make sense for GM to put their efforts there when they have so many other vehicles to design, develop, and produce that will be much more profitable than a very low volume Mustang killer.

My own personal opinion is that if the Challenger and Camaro had been in the early design idea stages when the bailouts happened, neither would have been built. But both were getting close enough to production that it would have been a huge waste of money to cancel the projects. They need to be complying with CAFE which is getting more and more ridiculous, and neither car helps with that.

I disagree.

It has LONG been known for an absolute fact that V6 model Mustangs FAR outsell V8 models, and depending on who you believe, same with Camaro and Challenger.

Enthusiasts often make the fatal mistake of not realizing that while most people may want a sports car, only a die hard is shelling out $40k + for a Camaro, Mustang, or Challenger.

It's Joe Smith who is married with kids, has an SUV, and is looking for a toy but only has $25k tops to spend, pretty much the whole middle class, and parents buying their kids a first car that makes it possible for the V6 to sell, thus allowing the profit necessary to make the V8 trims.

Anybody who says that sales of top trim levels prop up bottom trim levels is crazy. For example, Ferrari. Do you see them making smaller engined cars to sell for $25k? No. Every car they sell is a beast. But....every car is also six figures.

If there were no V6 models to make profit on, your SS would be $70k easy and the ZL1 would still be on a piece of paper in someone's trash can. Same for GT500s, SRT products, etc.

Another example: Dodge. Ever seen a V6 Viper? Checked prices lately? Compare those prices to the Charger and Challenger which have V6 models. See where I'm coming from?

Big blocks need V6 sales now more than ever with the economy in the tank.

That's my $.02.

[MikeSVX]

Originally Posted by Wicked 6

I disagree.

It has LONG been known for an absolute fact that V6 model Mustangs FAR outsell V8 models, and depending on who you believe, same with Camaro and Challenger.

Enthusiasts often make the fatal mistake of not realizing that while most people may want a sports car, only a die hard is shelling out $40k + for a Camaro, Mustang, or Challenger.

It's Joe Smith who is married with kids, has an SUV, and is looking for a toy but only has $25k tops to spend, pretty much the whole middle class, and parents buying their kids a first car that makes it possible for the V6 to sell, thus allowing the profit necessary to make the V8 trims.

Anybody who says that sales of top trim levels prop up bottom trim levels is crazy. For example, Ferrari. Do you see them making smaller engined cars to sell for $25k? No. Every car they sell is a beast. But....every car is also six figures.

If there were no V6 models to make profit on, your SS would be $70k easy and the ZL1 would still be on a piece of paper in someone's trash can. Same for GT500s, SRT products, etc.

Another example: Dodge. Ever seen a V6 Viper? Checked prices lately? Compare those prices to the Charger and Challenger which have V6 models. See where I'm coming from?

Big blocks need V6 sales now more than ever with the economy in the tank.

That's my $.02.

Shelled out 30K for my 1SS in December of 2009. And the SS sold far more then even GM predicted the first year. It's part of the reason GM paid back there government loans early.

I agree with what you said about buying the V6's for kids. Personnally I would by my kid used. But I highly disagree with putting a 16 year old in a 400 hp car for there first car, in fact, 300hp is pushing it. But I can see the desire to get them something to be happy in. My first car was a '69 Camaro, but it was a little 307ci with a power-glide tranny. It was rated for about 180hp. We put a little bit of a cam in it that might have got it up to about 210hp, but even at that low power I loved the car because it had style. It wasn't really any faster the a Honda Civic, but I had a car I was proud of and that I took car of.

Also:
You forgot to mention that they need the V6 sales to help meet there company EPA rquirements.