irpq11, L99 Dyno results.

[pcmforless]

From a tuner who is always looking to get the best air/fuel mixture and peak timing, No, I would not say it is Satisfactory, BUT, it is putting down the exact Air/fuel that GM has it programmed for, so there is no defect in your car. Unfortunatly the dealer has no ability to adjust this as they can only load stock GM cals. If GM comes out with a leaner cal due to multiple customer complaints of low power (they have done this in the past) then your dealer could load that updated tune, but otherwise it is what it is.
If you go to your dealer and tell them the guy from PCMFORLESS or the Camaro5 board for that matter says you are losing 25 to 30 HP because the factory tune is rich and the timing is weak they just aren't going to take you serious because they just don't understand the inner workings of the ECM themselves.
I think if enough of you guys go in with compaints of low power GM may consider tweaking the tune some to get the air fuels at least into the mid 11's and add a bit of timing. Back in the late 90's a bunch of Mustang Cobra guys compained of lack of power and Ford changed all of their intake manifolds and I think exhaust manifolds to raise the power. Changing the ECM cal is much easier and less expensive.

[PQ]

Originally Posted by pcmforless

From a tuner who is always looking to get the best air/fuel mixture and peak timing, No, I would not say it is Satisfactory, BUT, it is putting down the exact Air/fuel that GM has it programmed for, so there is no defect in your car. Unfortunatly the dealer has no ability to adjust this as they can only load stock GM cals. If GM comes out with a leaner cal due to multiple customer complaints of low power (they have done this in the past) then your dealer could load that updated tune, but otherwise it is what it is.
If you go to your dealer and tell them the guy from PCMFORLESS or the Camaro5 board for that matter says you are losing 25 to 30 HP because the factory tune is rich and the timing is weak they just aren't going to take you serious because they just don't understand the inner workings of the ECM themselves.
I think if enough of you guys go in with compaints of low power GM may consider tweaking the tune some to get the air fuels at least into the mid 11's and add a bit of timing. Back in the late 90's a bunch of Mustang Cobra guys compained of lack of power and Ford changed all of their intake manifolds and I think exhaust manifolds to raise the power. Changing the ECM cal is much easier and less expensive.

What would you do if you were me? Is this car acceptable according to GM marketing?

Should I just get a tune and be done with it?

If I can't get in the low 5s to 60, and under 5 in the fall, I will just get a tune and be done with GM all together.

Am I being unreasonable? I don't know what the hell to think. I sure wasn't expecting this when I ordered this thing. Right now I'm sooooooo wishing I would have gotten the LS3.

And before anyone decides to flame me, I'm not talking about anyone but ME. If I would have got the stick, I wouldn't be having this issue. Sure, the car is strong but not like it should be and I don't think it's wrong to expect to get what's advertised. I love the new Camaro. Just not mine.

Most of the L99s seem fine but how many have tested them. Performance wise or diagnosticly?

[rpepka]

Hi Irpq11,

I took mine to the dealer and they are performing tests on it. When I spoke to them yesterday, they asked me what type of gas that I used. My rep said that they were doing all types of 0 to 60 tests with traction control on, off etc. I said "so I'm NOT on drugs?!” She said “no you’re not on drugs”, I said “so there is something wrong with the car” she said “Yes, there is something wrong with the car”. I could not have been more happy! When I dropped the car off I included a copy of the brochure page of the Camaro that shows the 0 to 60 time advertised at 4.7 seconds and a stop watch. I also printed all the blogs regarding this issue from this blog and others. Take your dyno results as well. Scott says “Once at the dealership, we need your dealer to initiate a Technical Assistance Case through Launch Brand Quality process. So take it back to the dealer and make them keep it until they do something about it. My car has been at the dealer for 9 days now.

[Scott@Bjorn3D]

Randy. WAIT!!

They are going to put a data logger on #230 next week. Lets wait and see what they come up with. Also you and have talked about the VRAM air intake. We can do that without voiding a warranty.

I don't want to see you waste your warranty man. You already have told me a few times you should of listened to me about the Camaro stuff. Don't jump the gun and mess up the warranty yet.

[MTron]

Originally Posted by Scott@Bjorn3D

Randy. WAIT!!

They are going to put a data logger on #230 next week. Lets wait and see what they come up with. Also you and have talked about the VRAM air intake. We can do that without voiding a warranty.

I don't want to see you waste your warranty man. You already have told me a few times you should of listened to me about the Camaro stuff. Don't jump the gun and mess up the warranty yet.

QFT!!!!! DONT VOID your warrenty...... Its not a solution to get the car tuned....i mean...has everyone gone crazy? Your not getting what GM said you should be getting....and not by a little...but quite a significant margin, of such degree that there MUST be SOME issue with the car. However minor the issue, it is NOT YOUR responsibility to fix it.

I mean, people saying "oh, yea the A/F is a little wonky, but we can just tune it and its all better!" or "oh, go get it dyno tuned it will be fine!"

These are NOT solutions, they are workarounds! and unfortunately one thing they don't work around is you not being able to keep your warranty on the power train if you get it tuned.

Talk to your dealer, explain that something is not right, ask then to contact GM, let them know others are having a similar problem.

If your dealer doesn't believe you or care, which might be the case, contact a different dealer.

At the very least, do as Scott said and wait until they get some data off his computer, and see if there is some kind of issue. As well, wait for rpepka to find a solution for his car so as to see if it might be applicable to your case as well.

"Cooler heads prevail" Don't do anything rash, don't do anything that cant be undone, NOT until you have ALL the information

[Crowley]

I agree that something is probably wrong .. the problem is what. Could be Air filter related, fuel related? You have a dyno showing that A/F is definately a little wacky. You mention 0-60 times so if you have measured that and they are off, something is up. Here is what we know you can do, change air filters .. that will NOT void the warrenty. If that doesn't resolve the issue, I'd have the dealer check it out .. maybe they will find something and all will be well.

You will get this issue resolved (I know that doesn't help the situation now), but if you had initially planned to not do anything that could possibly void your warrenty, stick to that as in the long run it will make you feel better! You will have lots of support on whatever decision you make and I hope it gets resolved for you.

Crowley

[2010SLVRBULIT]

Curious as to what fuel(rating and brand)you are using. I'd try that first..

[Number_9]

Originally Posted by irpq11

Am I being unreasonable? I don't know what the hell to think. I sure wasn't expecting this when I ordered this thing. Right now I'm sooooooo wishing I would have gotten the LS3.

This is my new daily thread obsession.

[JTinFL]

Has anyone put any other type of gas in it yet other than 93 octane to see what it would do?

[themossman]

Originally Posted by irpq11

... I love the new Camaro. Just not mine...

That makes me sad. :(

[Matt TuneTime]

Originally Posted by irpq11

BTW all. For buying a BRAND NEW car, It sure is a pain in the ass to own right now.

If I go to another shop and the reading are not showing the car running right, then I'll need to go to ANOTHER shop.

You need to go to another dyno. Just one more to see if all things are equal ...Then well or I'll help you move on .

Originally Posted by 08z51c6

I'd seriously take your car to another shop and get it dynoed. Look at it this way, you already have this set of numbers so if you take it to another reputable shop and get the same results you have that much more in proof to take to your dealer and show them some thing is not right.

My guess is bad fuel pump or injectors.

Injectors are with in 5% so it's possible to have a 10% variation between 2 cycl's but highly unlikely

Originally Posted by Verio

So how many dynos does he need to do before the results are good? 5? 10? Does he need to take it to a track next?

Seriously, there's an issue and everyone can see it. Now he has cold hard data to show it.

Building a car or complaining or tuning based on wrong data sucks ... He needs to go to one more shop then we can help him move on ..

Originally Posted by Rockets

My L99 hop's around on the Tach,about 100 too 200rpm's and talked too the Mechanic and he said its a lean roll cause of the lean fuel mixture and injectors need a few thousand k too seat,driving the bag off your new hot rod is not the way too break it in and suspect some of the problems are compounded from the driver ripping the bag off the car before its time too do so

No he's way off here , The rpm hop is normal on almost any LS ...

Originally Posted by pcmforless

Honestly, this is how these cars are factory tuned. They are set up to run a high 10 to low 11 Air/fuel at WOT. Looking at the power enrichment table in the factory cal it is at 1.32 to 1.34 in most of the HP band which equates to a 10.97 air/fuel (14.7 divided by 1.34 = 10.97 WOT air fuel). I'm not sure why GM is commanding such a rich air/fuel on these cars, the LS3's are typical GM rich in the 11.5 to 12.0 range, but the high 10's to low 11's on the L99's reminds me of how bad they do on the stock tune on the trucks. The timing is also very weak on the L99 factory tunes and there looks to be a lot of gains to be had on these tunes. Once I get one on the dyno instead of just a street tune I will get some before and after numbers up.
The six speed auto is good for 20 to 22 % drive train loss at least based on Vettes and STS-V's I have dyno tuned. Only the M6 is going to give you a 15 to 17% loss. The A6 is pretty heavily built for strength and that eats up power to the tires.
Really there is nothing wrong with your car, that is just how it is programmed from the factory and the dealer has no way to fix that.
Something in the 320 to the tire range is what I would expect one of these to make to the tire stock. 400 X .8 (just a 20% drivetrain loss) is 320HP.

Not to argue here but the commanded PE vs accual is off you'll find Even if you comand 12.8 on a bone stock car you'll get 13.3-5 you have to take out of the maf up top to get commanded

Originally Posted by pcmforless

From a tuner who is always looking to get the best air/fuel mixture and peak timing, No, I would not say it is Satisfactory, BUT, it is putting down the exact Air/fuel that GM has it programmed for, so there is no defect in your car. Unfortunately the dealer has no ability to adjust this as they can only load stock GM cals. If GM comes out with a leaner cal due to multiple customer complaints of low power (they have done this in the past) then your dealer could load that updated tune, but otherwise it is what it is.
If you go to your dealer and tell them the guy from PCMFORLESS or the Camaro5 board for that matter says you are losing 25 to 30 HP because the factory tune is rich and the timing is weak they just aren't going to take you serious because they just don't understand the inner workings of the ECM themselves.
I think if enough of you guys go in with compaints of low power GM may consider tweaking the tune some to get the air fuels at least into the mid 11's and add a bit of timing. Back in the late 90's a bunch of Mustang Cobra guys compained of lack of power and Ford changed all of their intake manifolds and I think exhaust manifolds to raise the power. Changing the ECM cal is much easier and less expensive.

No it was the cylinder heads the cars where 40-50hp off and ford replaced the heads and Cal to get the car to the rated hp of 305hp ... IMO untill I get a few more L99 car's on they dyno and see them at the track I'll wait to comment on the L99 stock tune ...

[pcmforless]

I would wait to see if GM comes up with something since more than a few people have made them aware and it sounds like they are working on it. If you want to keep your car completly stock I would definitely give them a chance to fix it.
Guys, I'm not trying to sell him a tune here, he is 5 or 6 states away, so I'm sure he is not going to drive the car all the way to PA. I'm just adding in expert opinion to the situation to help add as much information as possible to everyone's understanding of what is going on with these cars as I hate to see anyone dissapointed with their new machine

[pcmforless]

Originally Posted by Matt TuneTime

Not to argue here but the commanded PE vs accual is off you'll find Even if you comand 12.8 on a bone stock car you'll get 13.3-5 you have to take out of the maf up top to get commanded


No it was the cylinder heads the cars where 40-50hp off and ford replaced the heads and Cal to get the car to the rated hp of 305hp ... IMO untill I get a few more L99 car's on they dyno and see them at the track I'll wait to comment on the L99 stock tune ...

I agree the Commanded PE is not always 100% accurate to the MATH and that MAF fluctuations can make it vary, but if you open an L99 file and calculate out the VE tables you will see it follows his air/fuel readings almost to a T. I could get into a lot more of the in depth adders and fueling tables, but I was trying to keep it to simple math basics of tuning to explain that while the car is running very rich, it was actually programmed that way. Hopefully this info will help these guys with GM and the issues. I'm sure these guys don't feel like reading two tuners discuss all the fine print of tuning in a post where they are just trying to get their cars to run the numbers that were advertised.

On the Mustang info, here's just one link to the info on what happened with that car
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1999-2...d-mustang4.htm

I was just throwing out an example how a manufacturer fixed a performance car due to customer complaints and not looking for an argument on what happend 10 years ago on a Ford of all things....

[Unfair]

107hp drivetrain loss on the first run? that can't be right.