Jay leno hints to the z28 in video!!!

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by a_Username

But you are wrong on the SS carrying the bigger dose of horsepower, in reality it did not. The Z/28 carried more, it was just under-rated due to insurance and racing restrictions. However, there is no need for these guidelines to make a Z/28 now. GM can be truthful with it's HP rating this time around lol. Thus giving them the chance to make the Z/28 an all around power house.

If they make a strictly road-track performance vehicle this time around (Traditionally; smaller motor/less HP), it would be kind of stupid from a business standpoint in my opinion. What would the car compete with? A track-pack equipped GT? If they did make it like you've explained, this car would compete with the SS in the public eye, if they had similar performance and were similar priced. Most people who are for the track-only oriented Z/28 seem to forget that it would be cheaper (which is very important, especially in today's economy) to make the Z/28 with elements of both the original Z/28 and ZL1.

you are wrong do a forum search

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

you are wrong do a forum search

This says otherwise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-g...evrolet_Camaro
Z/28:

Advertised power of this engine was listed at 290 hp (216 kW). This is an under-rated figure. Chevrolet wanted to keep the horsepower rating at less than 1hp per cubic inch, for various reasons (e.g. insurance and racing classes). The factory rating of 290 hp occurred at 5300 rpm, while actual peak for the high-revving 302 was closer to 360 hp (268 kW) (with the single four barrel carb) and 400 hp (298 kW) (with optional dual-four barrel carbs) at 6800-7000 rpm.

SS:

1967-1969 L35 SS396 396 cu in (6.5 L) V8 325 hp (242 kW) @ 4800 rpm, 410 lb·ft (556 N·m) @ 3200 rpm
1967-1969 L78 SS396 396 cu in (6.5 L) V8 375 hp (280 kW) @ 5600 rpm, 415 lb·ft (563 N·m) @ 3600 rpm
1968-1969 L34 SS396 396 cu in (6.5 L) V8 350 hp (261 kW) @ 5200 rpm, 415 lb·ft (563 N·m) @ 3200 rpm

[KoTToN]

it looks like your taking Given specs from GM for the 396, and comparing them to estimated stats for the 302 from someone else....

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by KoTToN

it looks like your taking Given specs from GM for the 396, and comparing them to estimated stats for the 302 from someone else....

It looks like your implying that the guy was lying about the HP rating. He has no motivation to lie, explained why GM under-rated them, etc.

[ShnOmac]

Here is a good read on some Camaro history


1967 Chevrolet Camaro

Comments: Inspired by the success of the Ford Mustang, Chevrolet launched its own pony car, the Camaro. Chevrolet stated that the "Camaro" was named after the French word for "comrade," although some linguists argued that it was actually Spanish for a type of shrimp. Not exactly an awe aspiring name for a new pony car. Luckily, the Camaro had the muscle to back up its case. The Camaro was based on the upcomming 1968 Chevy Nova platform, and featured a unibody structure from the windshield and firewall back, with a separate steel rail subframe for everything up front. The Camaro was available from the start in hardtop coupe and covertible body styles, and could be order with nearly 80 factory options and 40 dealer accessories, including three main option packages and a choice of four different engines. The RS package included numerous cosmetic changes including a blacked out grill with hidden headlights, revised parking and tail lights, upgraded interior trim, and RS badging. Of greater interest to enthusiasts was the SS package which included as standard equipment a modified 350 cid V8 (the first 350 engine Chevy ever offered) with an available 396 cid big block producing 325bhp (L35) and later a 375bhp version, along with simulated air-intakes on the hood, special bumble bee striping, and a blacked out grill. It was possible to order both the RS and SS packages, and get a RS/SS Camaro, in which case the RS badging took precedence. Camaro popularity soared when a RS/SS Convertible with the 396 paced the 1967 Indianapolis 500 race.

In December 1966, Chevrolet then quietly released one of the most famous options codes of all time, option Z-28. Unpublicized and unknown by most of the buying public (and most Chevrolet sales people for that matter) and not mentioned in any sales literature, the only way someone could order the Z-28 package was to order a base Camaro with the Z-28 option, mandatory front disc brakes with power assist, and the Muncie 4-speed transmission. You could not order the SS package, automatic transmission, air conditioning, or the convertible. What you got was a unique 302 cid small block (Non-California emission cars were labeled MO while California emission engines were labeled MP) that was created by taking the 327 block and installing the short-stroke 283 crank. Specifically designed to compete in the Club of America Trans Am racing series which placed a 305 cid limit on its entries, the Z-28 was available to the public solely to qualify the car for racing. Advertised horsepower was listed at just 290bhp, which was not very impressive until one hooked it up to a dyno and got actual readings of 360-400 bhp. The Z-28 also came with a competition suspension, broad racing stripes on the hood and trunklid and could be combined with the RS option package. There was no Z-28 badging at all, lest it attract to much attention. The Z-28 proved to be difficult to launch on the street because its high reving engine was lethargic under 4000rpm and worked best when it was shifted at 7500rpm (!). Once it got going, the Z28 was tough to beat and boosted a 140mph top speed and numerous racing victories. Only 602 Z-28s were sold in 1967, making it a truly desirable collectable.

Production:
RS: 64,842
SS: 34,411
Z-28: 609

Engines:
230 I6 140bhp.
250 I6 155bhp @ 4200rpm, 235lb-ft @ 1600rpm.
(Z-28) 302 V8 290bhp @ 5800rpm, 290lb-ft @ 4200rpm.
327 V8 210bhp.
327 V8 275bhp.
350 V8 255bhp.
(SS350) 350 V8 295bhp @ 4800rpm, 380lb-ft @ 3200rpm.
(SS396) 396 V8 325bhp @ 4800rpm, 410lb-ft @ 3200rpm.
(SS396) 396 V8 375bhp @ 5600rpm, 415lb-ft @ 3600rpm.

Performance:
(Z-28) 302/290bhp: 0-60 in 6.9 sec, 1/4 mile in 14.85 sec @ 101mph.
(SS350) 350/295: 1/4 mile in 15.4 seconds @ 90 mph.
(SS396) 396/325bhp: 0-60 in 6.0 sec, 1/4 mile in 14.5 sec @ 99mph.



1968 Chevrolet Camaro

Comments: The 1968 received minor changes for its second year. The grill took on a more horizontal look while the vent windows were dropped and "Astro Ventilation" (i.e. flow-through ventilation) was added. Side marker lights were added while the SS396 received revised chromed hood inserts (the SS350s stayed with the 1967 styling). Underneath, the 1967 Camaros pesky axle tramp was cured by the addition of multi-leaf rear springs to replace the single-leaf units and rear shock absorbers were now staggered. A new 350bhp 396cid option for the SS was added, while the Z-28 option (now just labeled MO) actually received some publicity and sold 7,199 units. The Z-28s were now easier to spot as they sported Z-28 or 302 badges.

Production:
RS: 40,977
SS: 27,884
Z-28: 7,199

Engines:
230 I6 140bhp.
250 I6 155bhp @ 4200rpm, 235lb-ft @ 1600rpm.
327 V8 210bhp.
327 V8 275bhp.
350 V8 255bhp.
(SS350) 350 V8 295bhp @ 4800rpm, 380lb-ft @ 3200rpm.
(SS396) 396 V8 325bhp @ 4800rpm, 410lb-ft @ 3200rpm.
(SS396) 396 V8 350bhp @ 5200rpm, 415lb-ft @ 3200rpm.
(SS396) 396 V8 375bhp @ 5600rpm, 415lb-ft @ 3600rpm.

Performance:
(SS396) 396/325bhp: 0-60 in 6.6 sec, 1/4 mile in 15.0 sec @ 94mph.



1969 Chevrolet Camaro


Comments: 1969 saw several noteworthy changes to the Camaro. The grill became deeper set, the taillamps were longer and thinner and broken into three segments. A heavy "eye-brow" crease was added on the both sides of the car extending from the front wheel well to the rear wheel well. A matching crease went from the rear wheel well to the rear quarter panel. The Camaro also received new fenders, door skins, rear quarter-panels, grille and taillights which gave it a wider, lower appearance. Inside, the Camaro received a redesigned dash and more comfortable seats. Endura rubber bumpers were available on the Camaro as well as two ram air induction systems for the SS. The first was a new special hood with a rear facing inlet and cold-air duct underneath the hood. The second was a dealer installed cowl plenum kit that came with a special air cleaner and adapter. No special hood was needed. 1969 saw an explosion in engine choices. On the low-performance side, a new 307 V8 (a 327 crank in a 283 block) rated at 200bhp was added and a new 350 V8 rated at 255 bhp replaced the more powerful 327 engine. The Z28 continued with its seriously under-rated 302 (now called DZ) engine. The RS package was still popular, and included a special grill with concealed headlights (of a ribbed design) and washers, chrome wheel well moldings, drip rails, pinstripes, and RS badging. The SS standard 350 received a slight power boost to 300 bhp while the 396 engines continued in 325/350/375 bhp versions. Once again, a white RS/SS convertible with the 396 engine paced the Indianapolis 500 race, and Chevy offered replica versions as white convertibles with orange stripes and orange houndstooth upholstery (though most replicas were powered by 350 engines. Because of their collectibility, there are many "fake" 1969 Pace Car replicas out in the collector market so be careful if you are planning on buying one.

But real performance is more than special upholstery and the big news for 1969 was the availability of special 427 cid V8 equipped Camaros. The first were special dealer-installed units, most notably the Yenko Camaro 427. Yenko Sports Cars, based in Pennsylvania, along with other Chevy dealers such as Nickey in Chicago, Dana in California, and Baldwin-Motion in New York, would install the L72 427 cid block, rated at 425bhp by Chevrolet, ordered under the Central Office Production Order System (COPO) code 9562 into a buyer's Camaro. The Yenko Camaro 427 is a typical example: it came from the factory with no ornamentation, badging, and the 427 engine in a crate. Yenko installed the 427 block, changed the rating to a more realistic 450bhp, and added 15-inch rally wheels, bigger front roll bar, and sYc (Yenko Sports Car) badging. A full complement of racing add ons were available and sub 13 second quarter miles were possible with a few more dollars.

Overshadowing these dealer modified Camaros was the factory Camaro ZL1. Specially designed to compete in the NHRA Super Stock drag classes, Chevrolet made it an option under the COPO system (code 9560). The cars began as SS396/375bhp Camaros with the F41 suspension. The SS trim and engine were deleted, and the 427 engine, cowl-induction hood, front disc brakes, a choice of heavy duty 4 speed transmissions or Turbo Hydra-matic, and a 4:10 posi axle were added. But instead of the regular iron-block and head L72 found in the dealer installed Camaros, the ZL1 sported aluminum heads and the first aluminum block ever made by Chevrolet. It shared the L88 aluminum head/iron block's engine rating of 430 bhp but made closer to 500 bhp -- making it probably the most powerful engine Chevrolet ever offered to the public. And the engine weighed just 500 pounds, the same as Chevy's 327 small block. The car was blessed with a 5 year/50,000 mile warranty and was fully street legal. With factory exhausts and tires, it turned low 13s; with headers and slicks, it could turn 11.6s @ 122mph. This was the fastest car ever produced by Chevrolet. Performance had its price -- $4,160 for the ZL1 engine alone pushing the price of the Camaro ZL1 to an unbelieveable $7,200 (about double the price for a SS396 Camaro). Chevy needed to build 50 to qualify the car for racing, and in the end built 69 Camaros and 2 Corvettes with the ZL-1 engine. Their high price made them difficult to sell and at least 12 engines were removed and about 30 cars were returned back to Chevrolet. It took until the early 1970s to sell them all. One can only wonder what they are worth today.

Production of the 1969 Camaros continued into the beginning of 1970 as the all new 1970 Camaros were not released until mid 1970. To add to the confusion, some late 1969 cars were titled as 1970 models.

Production:
RS: 37,773
SS: 33,980
Z-28: 19,014

Engines:
250 I6 155bhp @ 4200rpm, 235lb-ft @ 1600rpm.
Z28: 302 V8 290bhp @ 5800rpm, 290lb-ft @ 4200rpm.
307 V8 200bhp @ 4600rpm, 300lb-ft @ 2400rpm.
327 V8 210bhp.
327 V8 275bhp.
350 LM1 V8 255bhp.
(SS350) 350 V8 300bhp @ 4800rpm, 380lb-ft @ 3200rpm.
(SS396) 396 V8 325bhp @ 4800rpm, 410lb-ft @ 3200rpm.
(SS396) 396 V8 350bhp @ 5200rpm, 415lb-ft @ 3200rpm.
(SS396) 396 V8 375bhp @ 5600rpm, 415lb-ft @ 3600rpm.
(COPO 9561) 427 V8 425bhp @ 5600rpm, 460lb-ft @ 4000rpm.
(COPO 9560) 427 V8 430bhp @ 5200rpm, 450lb-ft @ 4400rpm.

Performance:
(Z-28) 302/290bhp: 0-60 in 7.4 sec, 1/4 mile in 15.12 sec @ 94.8mph.
(SS396) 396/375bhp: 0-60 in 6.8 sec, 1/4 mile in 14.7 sec @ 98.7mph.
(COPO 9561) 427/425bhp: 0-60 in 5.4 sec, 1/4 mile in 13.5 sec @ 102mph.
(COPO 9560) 427/430bhp: 0-60 in 5.3 sec, 1/4 mile in 13.16 sec @ 110 mph.

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...istory-1.shtml

[a_Username]

I wish this would give some consistent performance numbers. According to the article, no major changes that would add weight or any other variable that would change performance.

Why in 1967 did the 396 @ 325hp get a 14.5 in the 1/4, but in '68 it got a 15.0 flat?
Why in 1967 did the 302 @ 290hp get a 14.8 in the 1/4, but in '69 it got a 15.1?

The Z/28 and ZL1 were obvioulsy two different vehicles, made for two different sets of racing. But why would GM make two different vehicles, spend unneccessary amounts of money for production, research, etc. for the two different vehicles, when they could combine the two to make one all around car? If they are to offer a "Super" Camaro, it is going to have to be a hybrid of the two. Making them as different cars would be stupid from a business standpoint in today's terms.

Oh and to KoTToN:

Advertised horsepower was listed at just 290bhp, which was not very impressive until one hooked it up to a dyno and got actual readings of 360-400 bhp.

[KoTToN]

Originally Posted by a_Username

It looks like your implying that the guy was lying about the HP rating. He has no motivation to lie, explained why GM under-rated them, etc.

well considering I have no idea who wrote it I cant vouch either way. Im just saying for comparison reasons it might be better to compary factory rating vs factory ratings and personal estimated ratings vs personal estimated ratings. Although I do see your point, the 302 was super underrated compared to most.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by a_Username

I wish this would give some consistent performance numbers. According to the article, no major changes that would add weight or any other variable that would change performance.

Why in 1967 did the 396 @ 325hp get a 14.5 in the 1/4, but in '68 it got a 15.0 flat?
Why in 1967 did the 302 @ 290hp get a 14.8 in the 1/4, but in '69 it got a 15.1?

The Z/28 and ZL1 were obvioulsy two different vehicles, made for two different sets of racing. But why would GM make two different vehicles, spend unneccessary amounts of money for production, research, etc. for the two different vehicles, when they could combine the two to make one all around car? If they are to offer a "Super" Camaro, it is going to have to be a hybrid of the two. Making them as different cars would be stupid from a business standpoint in today's terms.
Oh and to KoTToN:

Wikipedia Uh, yeah.
Gearing.
Affordability. FYI there are 6 different Vettes available and they only have 2 seats.

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by KoTToN

well considering I have no idea who wrote it I cant vouch either way. Im just saying for comparison reasons it might be better to compary factory rating vs factory ratings and personal estimated ratings vs personal estimated ratings. Although I do see your point, the 302 was super underrated compared to most.

There are two separate sources saying that the 302 was under-rated. I'm sure it is fact. Thus, making the Z/28 the more powerful version.

[Ronin_2SS]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

Wikipedia Uh, yeah.
Gearing.
Affordability. FYI there are 6 different Vettes available and they only have 2 seats.

+1 the z28 was lighter and had the options of different gear ratios. also better tuned suspension. and other little factors that could have made the z28 close to the ss in the 1/4 but wiki is not too acurate imo. they claimed that the c5 zo6 powered by the ls6 was also underated from 405hp to 425hp. which wasnt true. my buddy dyno'd his bone stock 02 zo6 and it put 342hp to the wheels. thats about right with bout 15% drivetrain loss. so im not sure about wiki claims.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by a_Username

There are two separate sources saying that the 302 was under-rated. I'm sure it is fact. Thus, making the Z/28 the more powerful version.

yes & no

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

Wikipedia Uh, yeah.
Gearing.
Affordability. FYI there are 6 different Vettes available and they only have 2 seats.

The article stated no significant changes were made between the two model years... I'll have to look it up I guess.

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

yes & no

In reality the 302 was Dyno'd drastically beyond what GM stated. You're going to believe fudged numbers moreso than reality?

[KoTToN]

well theres only one way to solve this. Someone buy me a 69 396 SS/RS , and then also buy me a 69 Z/28. Ill get back to you at some point with the results