L99 AFM -- It's REALLY a tough choice, for some. Step Inside.

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I dunno...it's been around for a few years, now.
They claim that the system uses 1/3 a horsepower to spin the blower when cruising.

I don't know about the sound...Camarospike can elaborate on that I'm certain!

i think we are going to have to add a new section....ask Spike/Ask Mr. Norris. lol

and yes the blower isnt forcing as much air so in effect its just another pulley on the accessory belt its still putting some FI on the motor, just not as much as when you get on the gas

Originally Posted by gtahvit

On the supercharger the valve is open at low rpm/load you don't hear it. When you increase the vacuum the valve closes to route the compressed air into the intake manifold.

Unlike the Turbo which releases unused air when backing off the throttle.

exactly right. with a turbo you have a lot of built up pressure that has to go somewhere and since its not directly proportionate to engine speed (supercharger slows down with the motor due to the belt... duh, turbo can keep spinning ) you need the wastegate valve to let that air go somewhere

Originally Posted by linkwpc

Ok how about the sound of the LS3 and L99. For me I love the sound of a V8 at idle, at WOT, and at a long cruse down the street. But I think you cannot get all of the with the L99. When you idle you are running only 4's and when you are crusing you are running on 4's too right? You can only get the true V8 sound when you are starting to go, and thats about it. For me, I want a Auto. But I like manuals too, it just that I live in LA. But I really really want my V8 sound all the time, not just sometimes....(I'm going to add some bassanis) So I'm going for the LS3

the sound is different between the two, but its not a large difference (except when you are cruising and the L99 runs on 4 cyl)

but if you plan to make long trips, the quieter sound at cruise is a godsend. ive driven 2000mile roundtrips from SC to IL with longtube headers dumping at an ORY. gets old quick. i run an electric cutout now. the car is still loud as balls when i get on it, but its got a nice idle thats not too bothersome.

[topgun1]

Well for me, I've always been partial to manuals. I just love the feel,thrill and sound of shifting gears in close ratio with a short-throw shifter (which I plan on getting in the Camaro). So my choice--LS3. I actually think that the highway mpg #'s will end up being a little bit better than the EPA's estimated mileage, as did in a couple of my previous manuals, plus i do most of my driving on the interstate anyway. and launch control? that just sounds cool period.

Even though initial testing shows that the auto is quicker, could you honestly tell the difference? Unless you're a serious drag racer that actually races in a class, would you really care about a couple of tenths? I'll be throwing some bolt-ons on the car anyway, like an exhaust and CAI that'll increase the HP anyway.

The manual would just "feel" quicker anyway. And yes, it can definitely go as fast as the auto with the right driver. I also am a little skeptical on those test runs anyway, as a lot of other people on here are. I look forward to some new tests.

Even in autos I've had, I find myself holding the gearshift alot because it's just a comfortable position for me. Shifting gears to me is fun and you have a little more choice what gears you want to be in--you can also get that wheel chirp (when wanted) in up to maybe 3rd or 4th gear. It's a great sound too when you can shift down into slowing to a stop.

I could go on more about why I love manuals, but I don't want to bore you guys, so bottom line--a couple of MPG, a few HP is not going to persuade me to purchase an auto.

[PatrickfromMD]

Originally Posted by 2KZ28_For_Now

Soooo....with the L99 we get an "Eco" engine thats only rated about -20 HP over the regular LS3. And, we get an auto with "optimized" shift points that BEATS that same engine by a 10/th or so in 1/4 mile times. And, we will get BETTER economy for those that will drive it daily, and not look for the next "Stang to beat." : -p

For those that ALREADY drive an auto --- would you be willing to learn a manual, and get that extra 20 HP, and be more open to the modifications that can take it to 500+ HP?

Yes, the manual is more "fun," and it takes a steady discipline to get the rev-matches and "short-shifting" right. And, the manual LS3 WILL eventually beat the "projected" automatic times in the end, with a great driver.

But until then, if the PRICE is equal, or LESS than the LS3 manual, is it worth getting the "guzzler" over the "green V8?"

I am sincerely torn over the options Chevy have given me.

I guess it boils down to: Can the L99 be modified, while retaining the AFM features, to meet the LS3 mods?

I've been saying for a long time - that while I'd prefer to finally own and learn a stick - if the auto can hang with the "mods," why bother with a stick???????

Please, let's not get into a "automatic is for poozies" discussion -- I've been there. Let's discuss the fuel savings, the performance, and the "mod-friendly" factors.

I'm still leaning towards the manual LS3. But, I need some discussion that legitimately talks me OUT of the L99 Auto.

What do you die-hard gear-heads have to say? :seesaw:

2KZ28_For_Now,

Thankyou for starting this thread, it’s been one of my favorites as I too go back and forth over the choice of Auto vs. Manual.
I am not a frequent poster unlike most of you, but I see a lot of good discussion has been had, including how to have your cake and eat it too (ie. Have the benefits of the Auto, and the fun shifting it, the improved mileage of AFM and perhaps the ability to add some useable modifications.
Although my previous Camaro was a manual, as was both of my corvettes, for this time around, I’m leaning towards the Auto. Call me old, but I drive 35 miles highway to work, built in the DC area, itsoften with traffic, plus the wife wants to drive it as well, and makes buying it an easier sell if she can take it for a spin once and a while.
I encourage more people to discuss what they have seen in emerging performance parts and tips for the L99 as well as tweaking the paddle shifting auto trans. With the AFM impact on making this a freer revving motor, there may be limits on extending the Power band beyond say 500 rpms (talking power band here, not necessarily redline), so I’d also like to hear which aftermarket forced induction makers are experimenting with force feeding this motor. I saw a lot of good discussion of the possibility of the motor reverting to economy 4 cylinder mode while still in boost, which I see as a valid concern, but I also see that with computer programming this might be avoidable. Also, is the stock compression usable for say 5 - 8lbs boost?

Although outside the scope of this thread, I am surprised that the G8 seems to get slightly better EPA on the highway with its version of the AFM motor and Automatic despite having an approximate 200 lb weight penalty...go figure.
I notice the manual version has slightly taller gears (1.96/1 overall vs. 2.19/1) which should help its highway mileage. I would have liked the Auto to have similar taller gearing, built I suspect that turning the engine that slow while in 4 cylinder mode might create a drivability issue (who knows).

Anyone care to weigh in on what aftermarket providers are likely to be working on components for the Camaro? Especially those that would help the Auto version with AFM to be more of a all around winner?

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by PatrickfromMD

2KZ28_For_Now,

Thankyou for starting this thread, it’s been one of my favorites as I too go back and forth over the choice of Auto vs. Manual.
I am not a frequent poster unlike most of you, but I see a lot of good discussion has been had, including how to have your cake and eat it too (ie. Have the benefits of the Auto, and the fun shifting it, the improved mileage of AFM and perhaps the ability to add some useable modifications.
Although my previous Camaro was a manual, as was both of my corvettes, for this time around, I’m leaning towards the Auto. Call me old, but I drive 35 miles highway to work, built in the DC area, itsoften with traffic, plus the wife wants to drive it as well, and makes buying it an easier sell if she can take it for a spin once and a while.
I encourage more people to discuss what they have seen in emerging performance parts and tips for the L99 as well as tweaking the paddle shifting auto trans. With the AFM impact on making this a freer revving motor, there may be limits on extending the Power band beyond say 500 rpms (talking power band here, not necessarily redline), so I’d also like to hear which aftermarket forced induction makers are experimenting with force feeding this motor. I saw a lot of good discussion of the possibility of the motor reverting to economy 4 cylinder mode while still in boost, which I see as a valid concern, but I also see that with computer programming this might be avoidable. Also, is the stock compression usable for say 5 - 8lbs boost?

Although outside the scope of this thread, I am surprised that the G8 seems to get slightly better EPA on the highway with its version of the AFM motor and Automatic despite having an approximate 200 lb weight penalty...go figure.
I notice the manual version has slightly taller gears (1.96/1 overall vs. 2.19/1) which should help its highway mileage. I would have liked the Auto to have similar taller gearing, built I suspect that turning the engine that slow while in 4 cylinder mode might create a drivability issue (who knows).

Anyone care to weigh in on what aftermarket providers are likely to be working on components for the Camaro? Especially those that would help the Auto version with AFM to be more of a all around winner?

weight is one of the least important factor for highway fuel economy. gearing, power, and aerodynamics play a more important role at those speeds. weight has a greater impact on city driving.

[Jamestwilliams]

Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23

but im mainly ranting on the 9000 members that joined in the last couple weeks or so just blabbing about everything that we've already discussed about the car without searching. it takes me about half an hour just to filter thru all the stupid posts till i find a post worthy of reading...like yours for instance. lol

Don't judge people on how recently they joined, I only just found this forum, I'm not that much of a keyboard jockey but I am a huge GM fan always have been. I understand a lot about physics and engineering when compared to the average joe based particularly on some of the posts on here. I only comment when I feel there is some need or that I could clarify things. You have to admit that the amount of useless posts on here makes it difficult for someone to read through all the posts ever if they weren't here from the beginning, just try to show a little compassion if someone repeats something from two years ago. By the way I do understand what your getting at and certainly flame people who say things that are incredibly stupid like I want eight gazillion horsepower or this car sucks, it gets out driven by a lotus how pathetic you know stupid s*** like that.

[GTAHVIT]

All we ask is if you readily know of a thread that can help the Newbs out, please hook em up and post the link.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Jamestwilliams

Don't judge people on how recently they joined, I only just found this forum, I'm not that much of a keyboard jockey but I am a huge GM fan always have been. I understand a lot about physics and engineering when compared to the average joe based particularly on some of the posts on here. I only comment when I feel there is some need or that I could clarify things. You have to admit that the amount of useless posts on here makes it difficult for someone to read through all the posts ever if they weren't here from the beginning, just try to show a little compassion if someone repeats something from two years ago. By the way I do understand what your getting at and certainly flame people who say things that are incredibly stupid like I want eight gazillion horsepower or this car sucks, it gets out driven by a lotus how pathetic you know stupid s*** like that.

You are right, on both accounts. However, for members that have been here since before the first 'spyshots' came out (less than a year ago), we've been hit with nearly monthly influxes of 'noobs' who don't have a clue about anything. Those are the ones that are irratating -some learn, others just go away. Mixed in amongst them are other new members who have either been following along, know their stuff, or simply read threads before posting. Nobody really has issues with them, and thankfully they are the majority of new members.

[Vash]

Yea it's hard to judge a noob by a join date. I was helping my dad build real race cars in the 70's. I do all my own servicing on my vette and am an expert with rotary engines. I have worked on F16's crew system's and was part of a Motorola lab in Austin that built the on board computer systems for the 2000 era jeep grand cherokee. I also worked for Chief auto parts when I was a teen.

Just saying... a couple of posts and a join date does not make a noob.
Now back to this engine. I think they should have a manual switch you can override the 4x4 cyl deactivation. Just like taking off ASR.

[rolnslo]

Originally Posted by Vash

...Now back to this engine. I think they should have a manual switch you can override the 4x4 cyl deactivation. Just like taking off ASR.

Amazingly, there is one. It's called the gas pedal.

[MajorTom]

I didn't bother to read the whole thread. But I did read the first post and to that guy:

If you can say "If the auto can hang with the "mods" then why bother with the stock?" You've clearly made your decision.

It seems obvious that you don't think a stick is fun to drive. The manual guys will be buying manuals because they want them. From my observation, the guys getting the manuals just like to drive manuals. I could go on and on about how the manual allows you to have greater control. And while an uninformed person could say "If you want to control the auto, you just flip it into manual mode and there you go. Manual transmission." That's not true. Autos with paddle shifters still switch gears automatically when you're at redline too long. If you're trying to push take a corner at redline in 2nd, it'll switch on you. So the manual will offer greater control. But the automatic will possibly be faster in the straights. So if you want the car to do the numbers the projected figures state then get the auto. You should be out to crush challengers and Mustangs. Not other Camaros so what does it matter which one is "supposed" to be faster. I believe it was the case about 6 years ago when there were auto and manual camaros. They just didn't make such a big deal about the projected performance figures so no one really cared.


And really. Get the one you like. It's not about which one will go through the traps 1 tenth faster.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by MajorTom

Get the one you like. It's not about which one will go through the traps 1 tenth faster.

That tenth of a second disappears pretty quick when you've got any modification to the manual. If you like the auto for the time, remember that everyone who has a manual is just that much more motivated to add an intake and exhaust to leave you behind. All that this better time means is that there's not going to be any auto-bashing anymore. It's an equal match. I'm glad to see that the technology is finally good enough to make such a match come to fruition.

[MajorTom]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

That tenth of a second disappears pretty quick when you've got any modification to the manual. If you like the auto for the time, remember that everyone who has a manual is just that much more motivated to add an intake and exhaust to leave you behind. All that this better time means is that there's not going to be any auto-bashing anymore. It's an equal match. I'm glad to see that the technology is finally good enough to make such a match come to fruition.

You kind of missed my point. The guy is saying he wants the Auto because it'll be slightly faster and what not, and there's no incentive to get the stick. I just said the guys who get the stick will not have to ask themselves this question... And it seems the only thing holding him up is that the stick says "422hp" next to it and the auto says "400". Or whatever the final numbers are.


And EPA fuel economy estimates are a bit harsh these days. I was able to average about 18 mpg with my GTO in the city. It weighs about the same as a Camaro and has a similar trans. Just sayin, the EPA uses a harsher system to figure the averages so you may see better in your auto and you may not.

[3whiterag]

Originally Posted by 2KZ28_For_Now

Soooo....with the L99 we get an "Eco" engine thats only rated about -20 HP over the regular LS3. And, we get an auto with "optimized" shift points that BEATS that same engine by a 10/th or so in 1/4 mile times. And, we will get BETTER economy for those that will drive it daily, and not look for the next "Stang to beat." : -p

For those that ALREADY drive an auto --- would you be willing to learn a manual, and get that extra 20 HP, and be more open to the modifications that can take it to 500+ HP?

Yes, the manual is more "fun," and it takes a steady discipline to get the rev-matches and "short-shifting" right. And, the manual LS3 WILL eventually beat the "projected" automatic times in the end, with a great driver.

But until then, if the PRICE is equal, or LESS than the LS3 manual, is it worth getting the "guzzler" over the "green V8?"

I am sincerely torn over the options Chevy have given me.

I guess it boils down to: Can the L99 be modified, while retaining the AFM features, to meet the LS3 mods?

I've been saying for a long time - that while I'd prefer to finally own and learn a stick - if the auto can hang with the "mods," why bother with a stick???????

Please, let's not get into a "automatic is for poozies" discussion -- I've been there. Let's discuss the fuel savings, the performance, and the "mod-friendly" factors.

I'm still leaning towards the manual LS3. But, I need some discussion that legitimately talks me OUT of the L99 Auto.

What do you die-hard gear-heads have to say? :seesaw:

Let me see, an LS3 a gas guzzler? I talked to a gentleman two weeks ago who called me to register for our show. He has a brand new Corvette and he just had to tell me that he drove from Toronto to Ottawa and got almost 35 MPG on the highway. Now, the rest of the story goes like this. He bought a brand new Neon, as a winter beater, which doesn't get that kind of mileage. Go Figure! The LS3 is very kind to you as long as you don't tramp on it. Just like any other car but better!!

[MajorTom]

Yeah, but the Camaro has like 600 extra pounds to lug around. Inertia is a b*tch. It takes more to get it off the line. Not to mention aero which has a slight effect on the highway.


That being said. My GTO which has the LS2 (which the Corvette didn't have to pay a gas guzzler tax with) and weighs about 500 pounds more can average about 26-27 on the highway at 65 with the cruise set. I don't imagine it'll be much different for a Camaro even with more power, displacement and a little more weight.

The LS motors are brilliant in my opinion. You can get monster hp and because it all comes in at relatively low revs it can still get good fuel economy. People who bash GM for using large displacement pushrod v8s just don't know what they're talking about.