Gm needs to bring back the pontiac line

[LOWDOWN]

"A few cars" is what cost Pontiac it's potential niche status...

"The Standard of the World" disappeared l o n g before the latest CTS appeared, and is NOT in danger of reappearing where it once was, anytime soon...including the next 5 Model Years...

10-to-1 you'll NOT see GM @ 25% again...unless Imports are BANNED! They'll struggle to stay above 20 unless they dump even more to the fleets...or buy out their competition... How did THAT work, the last time they tried it?

BTW, raise your hand if, before buying a new GM vehicle, you rented one as a major part of your buying decision...

Raise your hand if you did that with any other vehicle...

There's a thesis in the making for a budding MBA.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

BTW, raise your hand if, before buying a new GM vehicle, you rented one as a major part of your buying decision...

Raise your hand if you did that with any other vehicle...

There's a thesis in the making for a budding MBA.

Just saying, the father of one of my friends rented a Grand Prix for a business trip and ended up buying one two months later.

Fleet sales suck, but they can have beneficial effects like that.

[LOWDOWN]

Gee, Fenwick, NOT a PONTIAC?! A RENTAL PONTIAC?! Say it wasn't so... You couldn't talk him OUT of it?! From your posts, above, he mustn't have been much of a friend...

Just sayin'...

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Gee, Fenwick, NOT a PONTIAC?! A RENTAL PONTIAC?! Say it wasn't so... You couldn't talk him OUT of it?! From your posts, above, he mustn't have been much of a friend...

Just sayin'...

I told him the Impala was basically the same car as the Grand Prix, but the Pontiac dealer was having a sale. He went with the Grand Prix because it was a couple thousand dollars cheaper.

Seriously dude, what is your problem? Do you just troll websites trying to start arguments or something?

[LOWDOWN]

So he bought the car because it was $2Gs cheaper...NOT because he rented one and reallyreally liked it?

You see, rebuttals beget rebuttals...is that NOT what open forums are intended for? In a General Automotive section? And based on your posts, above, Pontiacs and rental cars are of less-than-useful value? Seems curious you, of all people, would now defend them...with personal experience...on this same thread...

So who's trollin' whom?

Just sayin'...

So we have ONE "possible"...any others?

[Camaro_Corvette]

Finally made it through this thread. Pontiac isn't coming back. Period.

[Camaro_Corvette]

[HeatherR]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

So he bought the car because it was $2Gs cheaper...NOT because he rented one and reallyreally liked it?

You see, rebuttals beget rebuttals...is that NOT what open forums are intended for? In a General Automotive section? And based on your posts, above, Pontiacs and rental cars are of less-than-useful value? Seems curious you, of all people, would now defend them...with personal experience...on this same thread...

So who's trollin' whom?

Just sayin'...

So we have ONE "possible"...any others?

Rental Camaros have led to sales...

It was not a popular decision when it was revealed, but that was how many people here 'test drove' one prior to ordering. They are very eye-catching on dealer lots and people that would not have tried one did who knows how many orders that may have led to?

I agree dumping cars into fleet is a problem-especially Cadillacs and Camaros, etc, but done correctly it can work. Chevys will be rentals because 1. rental cars are needed. 2. Rental car companies are customers too-customers who buy a lot of cars (and the discounts they used to get when cars were being dumped have shrunk-have you rented a car lately-they have passed these costs on for sure).

I know someone who traded in a Camry for a Malibu after having a rental. As you probably are aware there are many people that would not consider a GM product because they have visions of the bad interiors of the past, and exposure to a rental may change their mind.

I have not read all of your posts, but you obviously agree that GM should not dump vehicles in fleet to meet market share or use incentives to sell average cars because they are a deal.....But, aren't you also upset they killed brands and are trying to shrink their dealer base? Those are two things that have to happen to move away from selling (or dumping) average cars and propping up brands and dealers and become profitable.

These issues didn't develop overnight and they can'r be fixed overnight either. Killing the brands, thinning dealers and bringing only the best cars to market will get the ball rolling....

[LOWDOWN]

Heather, at the risk of repetition ad nauseum, and begging forgiveness for straying off-topic here, a bit, "the process" employed (no pun intended) was brutal, underhanded (in many cases, people AND product), not thought out (long term), but damned expedient and, unfortunately, deemed largely necessary...

It's amazing what can happen when everyone finally realized "the end is nigh"...

SAAB and HUMMER were deals for the sake of empire-building. "Ford's doing it, we better too".

The Fiat fiasco...$2 Billion + for what? THAT money is $2 Billion + more than Fiat paid for their chuck of Chrysler's carcass... Sir Sergio to the rescue, again...

That money, reinvested in PRODUCT? Gee, why would they? They were making TON$ in sub-prime mortgages, a "can't miss" investment...

20 years of Saturn, early on a "tribute" to what labor/management relations COULD be, down the drain. NO saved results, of any kind, pulpable...other than another surplus factory...

"Why are you bringing all this up, now? Dead issues..."

What assurances do we have that history won't repeat? There is a CLEAR history of looking over the cliff, being "saved" temporarily, and returning to "the days of old", in practise AND in deed, only to return to the cliff a few short years' hence. These scenarios have been repeated time and time again, for 30 years. In Detroit. REPEATEDLY. It's NOT the first time the Gulfstreams have been parked, only to re-lease 'em when times turn better, to use but one applicable metaphor...

For "new" GM's sake, I hope ALL realize this is their LAST CHANCE, cuz "too big to fail" has been stricken for the lexicon...

Sadly, there have been skillsets and simple raw talent excised that will NOT be replaced...ever...simply because "numbers had to be reached". NO "Ben Franklin Charts" used, NO visible rationale, NO real effort...just a chainsaw to reach "the numbers" target...

VERY expedient...but VERY shortsighted...

NOT all the employees, or plants, or dealers, or management excised were the "weakest", or the weak links, but that did NOT matter. ONLY "the numbers"...

So, beyond the obvious, GM is diminished BEYOND what it might have been, or deserved...which means LESS for us as consumers AND as stakeholders for, whether we want to be or not, WE ALL ARE...

As to guesstimates of 25+% Market Share, here, "we'll see". This fact remains: It's FAR more expen$ive and difficult to CONQUER sales than it is to MAINTAIN your current base. Those Brands excised, and their faithful followings, now go into the CONQUEST column...and coupons to buy another "maybe" GM product, alone, will only be part of that much more expen$ive challenge...and those coupons are GM's admission that what I state is TRUE...

You can BUY your way to Market Share...GM has done it for 30 years. The true test is, can they EARN Market Share with "in demand" Product instead of "have to give" Incentive$??

"We'll see..."

Stay tuned.

[Hylton]

Man it's hot out there today. Hope Heinz01 likes the heat here...

[fielderLS3]

I can't believe this p!$$ing contest is still going on! I thought it was over last week.

This all got started because a disciple of the church of Toyota read a negative Toyota comment (on a different thread...NINE days ago), and has been on the hate-GM warpath ever since. This type of obsession is neither healthy nor constructive. We can end it by not responding to it anymore.
:troll:

[DGthe3]

So, Lowdown, do you believe that GM would be better off right now if they didn't simplify their situation by removing unprofitable brands and their associated engineering, assembly, and distribution costs? That spreading their engineering and marketing money thinner on decent cars which don't return a profit is a better plan than focusing on making and promoting kickass cars which actually sell for more than their net cost?

I'd love to see Pontiac with a great lineup of cars, even a small lineup of great cars. Have a sporty(ish) yet efficient Grand Am (or Sunfire) with bold styling, a Firebird that looks even better than the Camaro and comes with a few more features, and a full size Grand Prix that makes people wonder why they'd pay 2x as much for an M5. However, what I'd like to see even more is a healthy GM, cranking out a few billion in profit each quarter. I don't see room for there to be room for a cool Pontiac division 5 or 10 years from now. And if Pontiac can't make cool cars, I think GM did the right thing by ending it.

[LOWDOWN]

Gibby, moving forward, that's what damned well better happen. But "the process" has been incredibly painful for a stunning number of North Americans, in particular. As a GMer, you've seen it first hand, and witnessed the exit of people who will be sorely missed; literally irreplaceable, right?

Conclusions I see?

1) Stick to core business and, with what resources ARE left, make damn sure PRODUCT is PARAMOUNT. Cash incentives will not float the boat; QUALITY might/should, along with sustained/improved DESIGN and EXECUTION...and effective Marketing. A TON of fence-mending is required, internationally...

2) Service Service Service...both up front AND out back at EVERY dealership "saved". Without "bend over backwards" efforts, that lovely-shiny-stylish-high quality Product will languish.

Why?

3) There WON'T be a second chance...Get it RIGHT, Do it RIGHT, RIGHT NOW!

See, Fielder, no Toyota references...but some of the pages from THEIR playbook ARE "appropriate"...

For instance: http://businesscenter.jdpower.com/ne...spx?ID=2010082

Over and out.

[Mike Jung]

Originally Posted by Camaro_Corvette

Finally made it through this thread. Pontiac isn't coming back. Period.

Can we get North American Holden Muscle cars then ?


I want a HSV.