GM not honoring my Camaro paint warranty; paint cracking and peeling all over the car

[jackr67]

Pete, I think we may all be in heated agreement here.

There are really two issues at hand:

1) The paint on my 2010 Chevrolet Camaro, in which

We all agree that something is wrong with my car's paint.
We all agree that whoever is at fault should be responsible for it.

We've narrowed the responsible parties down to those who had posession of the car in the first 8 miles of its life, which includes the Dealer, the Transporter and GM. I'm willing to believe that any one of those three may be at fault here. You're also suggesting that I may have done something to cause this damage, and hey - I'm open minded. If you can show me something I've done wrong to cause this, I'd be happy to take my licks and shoulder responsibility for it.

2) The poor customer service I've received from both the dealerships *and* GM. There is clearly a problem with the car. What I expected from both parties was help understanding the nature of the problem, and then help resolving the problem. The customer comes first, right? If there was a problem in manufacture or delivery, fix it or replace it. If I did something wrong, show me what it is so that I can stop doing it.

Instead, GM and John Miles (and Rick Hendrick, for that matter) seem to be more concerned with assigning blame to each other than providing me a good ownership experience. Honestly, I could really care less who did it. I love the car, wish I could be driving it. As the customer, it's my opinion that pointing fingers is secondary to fixing the problem.

In this situation, somebody needs to do the right thing - whether it's John Miles or GM. I've been very patient, and have tried to do everything by the book. Even so, I still find myself in a very disheartening situation with a vehicle whose warrantor will take no responsibility for its faults, and whose seller insists the warrantor is responsible.

If both the seller and the warrantor say it's the other party's fault - where does that leave me?

[begin edit]
And let me add one more thing. I do own a business, and every now and again I find myself in a situation where I know I've done nothing wrong, but I understand my customer's situation and why they might feel as though I had. In those cases, one hundred percent of the time I'll make it right for my customer - even knowing my company has done nothing wrong. In the end, I'm here to provide a service for my customers - if they don't feel they get their money's worth, I take that very personally because I understand what their business is worth to me, and what their hard earned money is worth to them. Yes, I may lose money on a transaction every now and then, but it's more important to me that my customers stay happy. Happy customers tell friends about the good experiences they have. If there's back-end remediation work to do internally in my company, or with the suppliers/providers/resellers my company uses, that's an internal problem that my customer has no reason to need to deal with. It's simply not their problem.
[end edit]

[syr74]

I sympathize with your plight. My mother owned a new 97 Catera and, prior to our marriage, my wife bought a 99 Grand Am SE. Both cars were complete disasters and in both cases GM attempted to blame the owners for the problems these cars experienced. (how on earth do you blame the owner for the nightmare that was the 97 Catera) I have witnessed GM reps call family members liars and insinuate that they were out to cheat GM out of money. Neither car was ever repaired.

I am genuinely sorry for your trouble, but the truth is that GM is never going to offer to fix your car and who they think is at fault has nothing to do with that decision.

[Berean]

Originally Posted by camaropete

Point taken. I don't agree, but I hear what you are saving. Think about it as if you owned the business and now you were responsible for all the cost associated with getting to the bottom of something like this.



Last time I checked, every dealer has a name. Take the OP's dealer for example:



The building says "John Miles" in giant letters and then just has a listing of all the manufacturers they carry. So like your example, the dealer is "Lowe's" and they should therefore be responsible.

Nice try, but still, not quite.

Lowes is not a franchise of any manufacturer. The dealer is a GM franchise. Just ask all those dealers who were shut down by GM during the bankruptcy.

I agree with you that the dealer is likely responsible and should be held to account. My point is, GM should be helping hold them accountable. It's not acceptable for GM to say, "We only build them, if you have problems with your dealer, call them, not us."

This is one of my major issues with GM. They need to hold their dealerships accountable and as long as those dealerships are a GM franchise, GM is part of the equation.

[myold88]

GM will never pay for this in my opinion. It's obvious the car was repainted for some reason after it left the factory and I bet GM can prove it. It appears PPG's rep came to the same conclusion.
Just a guess but with 8 miles most likely the dealer had it repaired. Did you special order this car ? If not, how long did it sit outside on their lot- One month, two, three ??

[Inspector 17]

Originally Posted by jackr67

Pete, I think we may all be in heated agreement here.

There are really two issues at hand:

1) The paint on my 2010 Chevrolet Camaro, in which

We all agree that something is wrong with my car's paint.
We all agree that whoever is at fault should be responsible for it.

We've narrowed the responsible parties down to those who had posession of the car in the first 8 miles of its life, which includes the Dealer, the Transporter and GM. I'm willing to believe that any one of those three may be at fault here. You're also suggesting that I may have done something to cause this damage, and hey - I'm open minded. If you can show me something I've done wrong to cause this, I'd be happy to take my licks and shoulder responsibility for it.

2) The poor customer service I've received from both the dealerships *and* GM. There is clearly a problem with the car. What I expected from both parties was help understanding the nature of the problem, and then help resolving the problem. The customer comes first, right? If there was a problem in manufacture or delivery, fix it or replace it. If I did something wrong, show me what it is so that I can stop doing it.

Instead, GM and John Miles (and Rick Hendrick, for that matter) seem to be more concerned with assigning blame to each other than providing me a good ownership experience. Honestly, I could really care less who did it. I love the car, wish I could be driving it. As the customer, it's my opinion that pointing fingers is secondary to fixing the problem.

In this situation, somebody needs to do the right thing - whether it's John Miles or GM. I've been very patient, and have tried to do everything by the book. Even so, I still find myself in a very disheartening situation with a vehicle whose warrantor will take no responsibility for its faults, and whose seller insists the warrantor is responsible.

If both the seller and the warrantor say it's the other party's fault - where does that leave me?

[begin edit]
And let me add one more thing. I do own a business, and every now and again I find myself in a situation where I know I've done nothing wrong, but I understand my customer's situation and why they might feel as though I had. In those cases, one hundred percent of the time I'll make it right for my customer - even knowing my company has done nothing wrong. In the end, I'm here to provide a service for my customers - if they don't feel they get their money's worth, I take that very personally because I understand what their business is worth to me, and what their hard earned money is worth to them. Yes, I may lose money on a transaction every now and then, but it's more important to me that my customers stay happy. Happy customers tell friends about the good experiences they have. If there's back-end remediation work to do internally in my company, or with the suppliers/providers/resellers my company uses, that's an internal problem that my customer has no reason to need to deal with. It's simply not their problem.
[end edit]

I think we all do agree with:

"...that something is wrong with my car's paint.
...whoever is at fault should be responsible for it. "

The real challenge is going to be finding who's at fault.

My main concern for the purposes of this discussion is your statement about poor customer service from GM. I started the escalation thread (and posted in here) to make sure that people who were getting the run around from their dealer manage to get their say and feel they were getting appropriate customer support (and frankly that GM has an opportunity to step in where dealers are being shady). I think many times GM gets thrown under the bus thanks to bad dealers (JMHO). And generally, by the time the regional GM rep gets involved, the customer is already thoroughly POed.

The regional rep in your case did offer you $3500 to have the car repainted. Is that correct? Did he offer to have the dealer or a GM authorized repair location repaint the car for you? I can definitely see how if they give you $3500 to have the car repainted and you do so at a paint shop and not a GM approved location, that would void the paint portion of the vehicle warranty. I can also see how they would want you to sign paperwork releasing them from responsibility should you have the car painted somewhere of your choosing. However, it shouldn't affect the other portions of the warranty.

If Marty did not see any issues with the paint on 5/17/10 and then does on 6/23/10, it would be nice to hear his side as to why that was the case. Did additional damage occur to the car that wasn't there on 5/17? It would be nice to hear his side in general, but I certainly understand why he (and many GM employees) don't post or are reluctant to post on forums and sites such as this.

I do get your edit about customer service and I would run my business the same way. However, it does open the door to people abusing you and taking advantage of your business and your generosity. That's easy to manage when you are a smaller business, but becomes exceedingly difficult when you become a large, global company. Perhaps this is what happened with GM and they just feel like they have to be ultra conservative. I can't speak for GM in this case nor do I understand why they operate the way they do. Just saying.

Again, I feel bad for what you are going through. I don't want to seem insensitive to your position or what you are going through. I do hope that it gets resolved to your satisfaction.

Originally Posted by Berean

Nice try, but still, not quite.

Lowes is not a franchise of any manufacturer. The dealer is a GM franchise. Just ask all those dealers who were shut down by GM during the bankruptcy.

I agree with you that the dealer is likely responsible and should be held to account. My point is, GM should be helping hold them accountable. It's not acceptable for GM to say, "We only build them, if you have problems with your dealer, call them, not us."

This is one of my major issues with GM. They need to hold their dealerships accountable and as long as those dealerships are a GM franchise, GM is part of the equation.

I don't know nor claim to know or understand the dealer relationships and how GM does business with it's dealers and vice versa. I will say that I think there are lots of bad dealers out there and it would be nice to weed those out. It would also be nice for the dealerships to start being accountable for themselves. If that were the case, GM wouldn't have to oversee except in extreme cases.

[formare]

I’m thinking - lawsuit, naming all parties. Subpoena all parties and prove the evidence trail from GM to Dealer to Owner. It’s likely any and all parties are at least partially guilty.

Unless an expert can prove the car has been tampered with (ie repainted) before the owner accepted the “evidence” then the case will be short lived. Or an expert can prove the manufacturer paint process was at fault (now we have a class action suit), assuming the expert can prove this was not some sort of freak manufacturing anomaly that only happened to one car out of 200,000+ manufactured.

Just my 2 cents… I hope it ends well for you sir. End of the day your statements tend toward the belief you recieved damaged goods - no one needs that in any car; but espicial true for those who consider the love of cars almost a religion (most of the camaro purchasing base).

[syr74]

Food for thought, I worked in the automotive manufacturing business for some time and with various manufacturers. Whenever a car was sent back for paint work due to a defect, etc. that paintwork was always done by hand. And yes, I have seen paint rework that was not the greatest from the factory, and on cars more expensive than this.

[jackr67]

Pete, since you bring it up, Marty offered me $3,500 as a cash settlement. This amount includes $500 to repair the curb damage caused to the car at the dealership while he was inspecting it. The remaining $3,000 was for paint work.

He arrived at the $3,000 amount because that is the amount a GM dealership could do the work for - at cost. He stipulated, however, that I could not have the work done at a GM dealership. In his words, he did not feel their quality was up to his standards and he was concerned the paint work would be even worse. Honestly, it sounded like a bunch of baloney to me but if I force a man to paint something he doesn't want to paint - the quality of the work *would* be poor. He further stated that by accepting the settlement I would have to agree to void my warranty.

I asked him to put all that in writing, and here is what he gave me:



To your second point - on both 5/17 and 6/23 I provided Marty with high resolution printed images of the defects as well as a map of where those images corresponded to on the vehicle. With pictures and a map, the only way he couldn't see the defects is if he flat out chose not to.

Since you've already seen images of the defects themselves, I'll include here only the front page of stapled packet I provided, in which I supplied an indexed image to Marty for easy reference. This packet included almost a dozen high resolution images of example defects, on each of which was a number corresponding to the numbers you see on this image, showing the general location on the car. This was from 5/17, where the defects were mostly on the top sections of the car. Since then, they have spread quite a bit.



Is there any reason you can think of why, with this clear of a map and detailed pictures of each defect, Marty couldn't have found the defects on the car on 5/17?

As to the settlement offer itself - they offered an amount which would be *their cost* to perform a paint job which he admits would not be very good. This, if they were even willing to perform the work at all. This settlement is supposed to give me the funds necessary to have the car entirely repainted by a third party shop, and to replace the value to me of losing my manufacturer paint warranty? Hardly. The estimates I've gotten to perform (and warranty) the work to strip and repaint the whole car are more than twice that amount - not to mention the drop in resale value for the car for having that portion of the warranty voided.

Pete - I understand what you're trying to do here, and honestly I can't fault you for trying .. it sounds like this is your job, and it can't be easy. I think you'll find that I'm a very reasonable person and that I'm trying very hard to do the right thing. All I expect in return is a little of the same consideration.

Really, put yourself in my shoes. You run a business on which dozens of employees and hundreds of customers depend to put food on the table. It's a stressful gig. To help relieve some of that stress, you decide to buy your first American car. It'll be a great stress reliever, and a lot of fun. Instead, you find out almost immediately that there are problems with the paint - worse, the manufacturer won't fix them. After eight months, you have a car your attorney won't let you drive, and you can't stand to look at. Your options right now:

1) Trade the car in. Sure, you take a bath on the trade and eat a loss of a few thousand dollars .. but at least it's gone. You learn your lesson.
2) Take GM to arbitration using the Lemon Law with an attorney - a process that can take months, if not years. This costs you a few thousand dollars in legal fees at a minimum, and in the end the most likely "positive" outcome is that GM gets told they have to paint the car. You end up with a not-so-good paint job and probably still end up getting rid of the car - but now it's branded and worth next to nothing.
3) Call the media, make noise and hold your breath until GM decides to provide good customer service. Really? Who wants to be a martyr.

[2SSRS@Gen5diy]

I have made no secret of my dislike of GM Management and there treatment of us the consumers of there metal (as they call it), This is what GM has bean doing to costumers for a long time, It is still there M.O. That is why i wanted them to get cut up and sold off last year.

Its a mind set that the costumer is never right, First tell them that its there fault, Then offer them some settlement, 36 years that i have been buying cars and it still the same.

[OUR72GTO]

So what is the date of the production and when did the car get delivered to the dealer?.

The original window sticker has the original dealer listed on it.. Is this the same dealer who sold it ?

What was the date of retail sale.?

Have a copy of the sticker produced!

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I would humbly suggest all the "big mean company" accusations get stowed until we have a full story....which may never happen, but.....it might.

"Better to be silent and thought a fool, then to open your mouth and confirm it."

In reality though, what does GM do to weed out bad dealers? Getting rid of ones that aren't making a profit for them perhaps, but all those dealers in the price gouging thread are still there. All those dealers that have screwed customers are still employed by GM to sell their vehicles. And this isn't just a hit at GM but all the big car companies. Most of the time they get involved as the very last resort when I believe the big car companies should be more pro-active in making sure their vehicles are being sold the proper way. It seems you have taken the stance of keeping the relationship the same as it is not in need of changes. I can understand that position considering your involvement with GM's upper management. In this case if GM had a team of "spies" that go to the different dealers and try and buy a car with a trade in and see how they get treated. Most companies do this sort of thing to weed out the bad apples. As far as I know, GM does not do this sort of investigating. I would hope you with your connections can let them know about that method as a good way to keep the dealers on their toes never knowing if a GM employee spy is the customer or a regular Joe Schmo. Just my two cents here..

[skuttduck]

Originally Posted by OUR72GTO

So what is the date of the production and when did the car get delivered to the dealer?.

The original window sticker has the original dealer listed on it.. Is this the same dealer who sold it ?

What was the date of retail sale.?

Have a copy of the sticker produced!

I found his car on the Spastic Squirrel database. His window sticker was found on 10/21/2009. He purchased the car in November, and it was the original dealer on the window sticker.

I think this whole issue would be resolved if the dealer had merely said "We'll repaint it, and make it right"

Not "We'll offer you $3500, find someone who will make it right for that price, oh and your paint warranty is void"

It appears to me that the only way you would find someone to make it right for that price is if you have a good friend who paints cars professionally and gives you a great deal.

To me this information he has indicates that the car was repainted, or just not cured properly at the factory. Most likely a repaint. Then it was sealed and waxed too soon causing the delamination.

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by skuttduck

I found his car on the Spastic Squirrel database. His window sticker was found on 10/21/2009. He purchased the car in November, and it was the original dealer on the window sticker.

I think this whole issue would be resolved if the dealer had merely said "We'll repaint it, and make it right"

Not "We'll offer you $3500, find someone who will make it right for that price, oh and your paint warranty is void"

It appears to me that the only way you would find someone to make it right for that price is if you have a good friend who paints cars professionally and gives you a great deal.

To me this information he has indicates that the car was repainted, or just not cured properly at the factory. Most likely a repaint. Then it was sealed and waxed too soon causing the delamination.

And furthermore, the only reason GM would pay for the repair is because it was wrong from the factory.

If the dealer screwed it up, GM would tell them to fix it on their own dime.

I don't see how GM is responsible. The accountability falls on who ever repainted the car.

Dealers have to get approval from GM to fix something that failed under nomral wear and tear. Not for something they break themselves...

Please lets not turn this thread into a bash GM thread. Lets focus on how car owner can sort out the best course of action.

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

And furthermore, the only reason GM would pay for the repair is because it was wrong from the factory.

If the dealer screwed it up, GM would tell them to fix it on their own dime.

I don't see how GM is responsible. The accountability falls on who ever repainted the car.

Dealers have to get approval from GM to fix something that failed under nomral wear and tear. Not for something they break themselves...

Please lets not turn this thread into a bash GM thread. Lets focus on how car owner can sort out the best course of action.