The 2011+ Mustang Thread

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by thePill

I'm just gonna put this picture up again because I know Ford is all over this site.

UNLEASH THE TERMINATOR!!!

OK ford does this I may once again become a Ford Cobra owner

[Jabs]

I don't think Low 40's.... You get a fully loaded SS for low 40's

Plus at 600 HP the GT500 will probably rise in price too?

[thePill]

Originally Posted by radz28

OOOOOO!!! A tech' post!!!!

As far as those rods - I think GM went with the Ti rods in LS9 for their weight, perhaps, more than because of their strength. They wanted lighter weight to get the revs' higher, and lighter rods enabled that, along with the other tricks they used to control the valvetrain. Isn't Ti more briddle than steel? That's not entirely desirable in all automotive applications, is it? I believe aluminum is desirable because they take the shock from N20 better, no (for example)?

Titanium is only brittle when cold (below room temp) when its heated (not over 430 degrees) it inherits alot of steels properties as far as working with it. Titanium is usually just as strong as steel but requires less metal to accomplish what steel does... It weighs about half of an equal amount of steel does. Titanium would be ideal in some areas, but rods and valves are very good places to use it.

Pistons - people seem very quick to take away any qualities of these hyper' pistons. It's like many automatically think they're the same as the "standard" LS3/L99 pistons, and they're not. In addition - the oil squirters are also going to assist those stay together more effectively. But don't both LS9 and LSA pistons have the coatings on the skirts?

LS9 pistons are coated and actually have more coating then the LSA's. However, the LSA survived longer in a durability test for about 150-200 hours longer. The reason being mostly because of the high cylinder pressure and HP/TQ output more than piston quality... regardless, the LSA last longer... The LSA's cast pistons use alot of the newer piston casting/forged techniques that the high cost forged applications do. There is nothing wrong with Hyper-E pistons, but when people are producing 650 rwhp and then complain that they blew a piston its not the quality of piston that caused the failure, its the quality of the person who made that decision. Pistons below, LS9 left, LSA right

SC - would it be possible that the 10.5 psi in the 2300 is necessary to produce the 80 more horse' and overcome inefficiencies in the packaging for LS9 in ZR1's body? I know they had to go to great lengths to keep the hood height low enough for visibility through the windshield which meant they really had to squish the SC and plenum down. Looking at the intercooler bricks on LS9, it's easy to see air is forced to change direction and shape to conform to the passages, IMVHO. Do you think this could have an effect on boost, since it is a reflection of restriction?

Both of these systems should be a closed air to liquid cooling systems and the superior efficiency of the TVS makes any small downfalls laughable. Air restriction in the dual brick would be a very small restriction and would think that heat distribution of a dual setup would balance out any flow issues. Just because the ZR1 uses a dual brick doesn't mean the ZL1 has to. a S/C specialist could answer this better than I could...

I think the CTS-V car is running an NA LS3-type engine, isn't it?... I don't know - that's why I'm asking

I was asking because I didn't know, but I thought that it WAS S/C'd.

I like the rest of the specific points you make about the powertrain and chassis, too. The engine can make all the power in the world, but it won't matter if the chassis can't take it and use it.

There are transmission options available and gearsets can easily be changed... I need to look alternate drivetrain set ups. What sucks for GM is that Ford never released anything on the Coyote long stroke and it was kept very hush after 2009. It would be a stab in the dark... kinda like the 60's again...

[Camaro_Corvette]

Originally Posted by radz28

I will

Gaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :bangdesk: :upset:

[bobby35ny]

I'm sure this caught GM by surprise. They have ears on the ground but I bet they thought they would have 2 good years before ford would ante up.

Then again, nothing is written in stone so things can change.
Take me for example, I'm considering a ZL1, wish it were cheaper though...
Now, Why would I buy a ZL1 now if I know they are going to match the ford a year later?? I will wait till 2013 for sure now for the ZL1.

Now what about this....................................
Why waste the R&D? Take the present LSA ZL1 and rename it to Z/28 and then take the ZR1 stuff and make that the ZL1?

-bobby

[thePill]

Were looking at two distinct weak links in both Ford and GM's heavyweights.

Ford's weak link is rubber, a 305 (or 315 with relocated sway brackets) would help but thick rubber isn't a cure all. Before you just say "Just throw some 305 PS2's or PZero's on there" it sometimes isn't that easy, it depends on what kind of production/racing support Goodyear provides Ford. Thick rubber good, Rubber compound better, it is being whispered that the GT500/SVT Cobra will use Pirelli's and that makes sense over the PS2's because Ford has a current deal with Pirelli. Sadly, there is no 315 in a PZero unless they go Rosso but it is a heavy tire and the treadwear rating is shit.

GM looks like they are in a transmission dilemma more than anything (some would argue weight) but unless they can convince Tremec to warranty a 560 torque rated transmission on an engine producing close to 625, I don't see the MG9 making it. The MH3 will bolt right up to the LSA though but that is the LS9 transmission. A good engine is not a problem, rear end? not a problem, Traction? New Goodyears could be scary but with 305's, 220 treadwear rating and the IRS that saps up some initial torque... Not a problem... The transmission is a problem, not because it can't handle it, but because its hard to convince a 3rd party supplier to fulfill warranty vouchers when Tremec obviously warns GM not to exceed that specific rating...

[BigDan]

Originally Posted by bobby35ny

I'm sure this caught GM by surprise. They have ears on the ground but I bet they thought they would have 2 good years before ford would ante up.

Then again, nothing is written in stone so things can change.
Take me for example, I'm considering a ZL1, wish it were cheaper though...
Now, Why would I buy a ZL1 now if I know they are going to match the ford a year later?? I will wait till 2013 for sure now for the ZL1.

Now what about this....................................
Why waste the R&D? Take the present LSA ZL1 and rename it to Z/28 and then take the ZR1 stuff and make that the ZL1?

-bobby

2012 GT500's are already in show rooms, meaning 2013's will also be in show rooms this time next year along with the ZL1, they wont be a year apart.

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by Sax1031

It does give Ford an advantage in the pony car market.

As long as a Viper and a Vette are around the companies have those ceilings for their Challenger and Camaro.

Just keep the GT500/or Cobra at the power level of the highest Vette or Viper and you will put GM and Dodge in a tough spot.

The last thing both companies want to do is sell a car with as much or more power as their flagship performer at half the cost.

Exactly! Leads me to an idea...

The only way a ZL1 could compete with a GT500 in this power range would to make some drastic business decisions with the Vette. I would imagine a complete change of direction for the Vette into true supercar territory. This would obviously free up the Camaro to slot in as a cheap(er) performance option for the common man. I'm thinking that they would have to probably completely drop the base Vette then obviously have only the Z06 and ZR1 remaining. Beef the Z06 up into the low 100k range, which means adding parts to justify its price making it decidedly above both pony cars, and doing the same to the ZR1; I would expect the ZR1 to be around 130k.

[stand-al0ne]

Originally Posted by Sax1031

It does give Ford an advantage in the pony car market.

As long as a Viper and a Vette are around the companies have those ceilings for their Challenger and Camaro.

Just keep the GT500/or Cobra at the power level of the highest Vette or Viper and you will put GM and Dodge in a tough spot.

The last thing both companies want to do is sell a car with as much or more power as their flagship performer at half the cost.

Power is only one aspect of the equation. The chasis you're putting it into is another key variable, and supports what I said earlier. Ford, having only the Mustang in the stable (there I go again), can only do so much with the chassis and therefore rely on making more power to offset the limitations posed by the platform.

Conversely a proper, purpose-built platform such as the Viper and Corvette separate themselves from the Mustang because of their superior platform advantage.

I've seen custom 50's trucks with more power than Viper&Vette's, but doesnt mean its in the same realm...

Originally Posted by radz28

Points taken.

Is there a market for this car, though? Obviously - the Ford guys wouldn't think twice, but what about non-Ford people. Is this Mustang really supposed to be expected to be compared to top-level 'Vettes and Vipers?

I agree - I dont think the current version of GT500 poses a thread to the ZR1. I also think no matter how bad you make a Mustang, its no Vette or Viper. But it does make a hell of a competitor to the Camaro and Challenger. But luckily there is this fierce competition IMO, but no one needs me adding that point...

[Sax1031]

I am sure Ford is not too worried about trying to out perform $100k+ Vettes and Vipers.

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by radz28

OOOOOO!!! A tech' post!!!!

As far as those rods - I think GM went with the Ti rods in LS9 for their weight, perhaps, more than because of their strength. They wanted lighter weight to get the revs' higher, and lighter rods enabled that, along with the other tricks they used to control the valvetrain. Isn't Ti more briddle than steel? That's not entirely desirable in all automotive applications, is it? I believe aluminum is desirable because they take the shock from N20 better, no (for example)?

Pistons - people seem very quick to take away any qualities of these hyper' pistons. It's like many automatically think they're the same as the "standard" LS3/L99 pistons, and they're not. In addition - the oil squirters are also going to assist those stay together more effectively. But don't both LS9 and LSA pistons have the coatings on the skirts?

SC - would it be possible that the 10.5 psi in the 2300 is necessary to produce the 80 more horse' and overcome inefficiencies in the packaging for LS9 in ZR1's body? I know they had to go to great lengths to keep the hood height low enough for visibility through the windshield which meant they really had to squish the SC and plenum down. Looking at the intercooler bricks on LS9, it's easy to see air is forced to change direction and shape to conform to the passages, IMVHO. Do you think this could have an effect on boost, since it is a reflection of restriction?

The biggest problem with hypereutectic pistons is their hardness. They are actually "harder" than most forged applications, but with hardness comes brittleness and susceptibility to breakage from deformation. Knock kills hypereutectic pistons, KILLS them, so in a factory application the tune will have to be much more conservative than a forged set would allow, which is necessary to accommodate varying weather and altitudes. That doesn't mean that the LSA can't make some fantastic power and run for years at that level, it just means that in comparison to the 5.4 tuning is going to have to be far more conservative on pump and equivalent fuels. That gives a big advantage to ford when it comes to factory outputs. The 5.4 could potentially put out (and has with the supersnake packages) over 700hp without touching the reciprocating assembly or any other internal engine component for that matter. Tuned for the crappy west coast 91, I highly, highly doubt the LSA is capable of numbers at that level while maintaining reliability with a factory tune. With a good dyno tune, it probably is. Anyway, this may not even be an issue as the cars may not move to those power levels for a long time, but it is still one thing that I'm sure Ford is aware of and Chevy as well. I have hypereutectic pistons in my car and have yet to break anything, but I also have a set of forged pistons waiting to go in for the day I get a tank of bad gas LOL.

Anyway, this just means that GM is going to have to pay a lot of attention to cooling, not only with squirters, but the intake charge and that is what you are going to want to take care of FIRST in the modding path. Cooling, cooling, cooling, a great tune, and consistent fuel delivery to battle knock.

[stand-al0ne]

Originally Posted by a_Username

Exactly! Leads me to an idea...

The only way a ZL1 could compete with a GT500 in this power range would to make some drastic business decisions with the Vette. I would imagine a complete change of direction for the Vette into true supercar territory. This would obviously free up the Camaro to slot in as a cheap(er) performance option for the common man. I'm thinking that they would have to probably completely drop the base Vette then obviously have only the Z06 and ZR1 remaining. Beef the Z06 up into the low 100k range, which means adding parts to justify its price making it decidedly above both pony cars, and doing the same to the ZR1; I would expect the ZR1 to be around 130k.

Idk, I like beefing up the Vette part, but I think a little overlap between similar products in house is fine. I mean, no matter which way the buyer sways, GM wins either way, so why not. So that said, I wouldnt like to see the base Vette dropped because its still a bargain for what you get and as long as it keeps pulling buyers away from M3s and the like, dont drop it.

And how do you see the Camaro freeing up a slot as the performance option for the common man when that top-of-the-line Camaro will likely reach 50k???

Personally, Id rather have a car designed around a performance-purpose that easily hits good performance #'s, than a car not as intended that has to completely be beefed up to achieve similar performance. My example of this is I would assume the base Vette will get around most road courses in the the same or better times than the ZL1 Camaro will...And the best part is the Corvette is easily mod-able from its "base" point.

But I completely agree with you saying why not raise the ceiling of the Vette.

However I have a feel you may have made a bunch of ZR1 designers upset by reading that, lol

[BigDan]

Originally Posted by Sax1031

I am sure Ford is not too worried about trying to out perform $100k+ Vettes and Vipers.

They stopped worrying about it once their $41k Boss Mustang started putting up better lap times then them.

Originally Posted by stand-al0ne

Ford, having only the Mustang in the stable (there I go again), can only do so much with the chassis and therefore rely on making more power to offset the limitations posed by the platform. That wasn't the case with the Boss 302 or the 2011 GT500 PP. That is where they put the majority of their focus and suspension engineering not bumping up power

Conversely a proper, purpose-built platform such as the Viper and Corvette separate themselves from the Mustang because of their superior platform advantage.

I agree - I dont think the current version of GT500 poses a thread to the ZR1. I also think no matter how bad you make a Mustang, its no Vette or Viper. But it does make a hell of a competitor to the Camaro and Challenger.

Ford skipped the Camaro and Challanger and focused directly on beating the M3 which it easily dispatched and is now gunning for the high end vettes since they already took care of the gran sport and base z06.

Yes I know the the Vette and Viper are more purpose built race cars but when a $41k factory Mustang is all over their bumper's at a track then its time to hit the drawing boards again.

Ford can even push the Mustang/ Boss even harder at the track if they convert the factory rear 3 link to a Watts Link type suspension. If they did that it would be game over for the competition.

Here's a video of an off the shelf Griggs system on a 3V Mustang at Laguna Secca


and a 03 Cobra Convertible racing the deadly Spectre 341 race in Virgina City

[C5RocksC5]

about the looks...well, it is always subjective but personally, I think the Camaro looks better than the standard Mustang but compared to a GT500, the Shelby looks awesome IMO and as a car person, you know when it is coming.