Mustangs................

[stovt001]

Originally Posted by Hesh

Yeah there are a few they havent met yet. The roll over and side impact has been increased from 1.5x unsprung car weight to 3x, and the addition of side curtain airbags. Me and you Nester agree. I didnt think there was going to be 300 or 400lbs, but with the new drive train and safety I figured between 100-150lbs.

But do we know the current one doesn't meet those requirements? Just because they increased doesn't mean the Mustang didn't exceed the old ones. And the new regulations affect Chevy too, which means the Camaro has to meet them as well. In the end, the Mustang will still be a significantly lighter car. Same power with less weight and similar gearing means it should be faster. Period.

[syr74]

Originally Posted by Hesh

So your saying instead of going ahead and doing the upgrades that are mandated they will just wait till the last possible time to do them? This is a 2011 car so that wouldnt be 2 years from now, that would be a year. Also no I dont think there will be an Oprah balloning, but another 100lbs for safety isnt unreal. My weight guess has been about 3700lbs for the Mustang. With the engine upgrade and saftey equipment added that would put my guess real close. Hmm lets see how does it come into effect. They are mandated for the safety equipment and more weight equals slower car...you do the math. The only one praying here is all the Mustang fans hoping that they get 400hp and the weight isnt added. To get them both would be a miracle.

There will be no changes to the Mustang chassis for the 2011 model year. They just upgraded the car for 2010, why would they upgrade again when they don't have to meet upgraded standards until the 2012 calender year? With a new Mustang expected for the 2013-2014 model year I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for another major revision between 2011 and 2012. Also worth mentioning, Ford has never stated whether the Mustang does or does not meet those 2012 safety standards, the car could easily already be compliant. Some automakers, including Ford, do have their own safety standards which iften exceed what the government requires.

The 5.0L driveline is expected to add about 25-40lb, the chassis will weigh about what it does now. That means a base GT is probably going to start in the high 3500 to low 3600lb neighborhood, or about 300lb less than a base Camaro SS weighs in at right now

[syr74]

Originally Posted by stovt001

But do we know the current one doesn't meet those requirements? Just because they increased doesn't mean the Mustang didn't exceed the old ones. And the new regulations affect Chevy too, which means the Camaro has to meet them as well. In the end, the Mustang will still be a significantly lighter car. Same power with less weight and similar gearing means it should be faster. Period.

A question which I have posed before and the Chevy faithful overlook. For all they know Mustang may already meet the 2012 standards.

[stovt001]

And for all we know the Camaro may not meet the 2012 standards. There are many possibilities.

[syr74]

Originally Posted by stovt001

And for all we know the Camaro may not meet the 2012 standards. There are many possibilities.

According to Gm the Camaro does meet the 2012 safety standards.

[Hesh]

Originally Posted by stovt001

But do we know the current one doesn't meet those requirements? Just because they increased doesn't mean the Mustang didn't exceed the old ones. And the new regulations affect Chevy too, which means the Camaro has to meet them as well. In the end, the Mustang will still be a significantly lighter car. Same power with less weight and similar gearing means it should be faster. Period.

Yes the Camaro already meets and exceeds the 2012 regulations. This has been posted several times on here by Fbodfather. About 200lbs of the Camaro is due to these new regulations that had to be met. The Mustang does not. The only thing that it does have is the stability control which is also mandated. They are missing the side curtain airbags, and the reinforcments on the roof and doors. I really wouldnt call 100lbs a significant weight advantage. An advantage yes but not a large one. I think the difference in the two cars will still be a drivers race. Same as it is now, not the blow out that some seem to think on both side of the Ford/Chevy debate.

[Hesh]

Originally Posted by syr74

There will be no changes to the Mustang chassis for the 2011 model year. They just upgraded the car for 2010, why would they upgrade again when they don't have to meet upgraded standards until the 2012 calender year? With a new Mustang expected for the 2013-2014 model year I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for another major revision between 2011 and 2012. Also worth mentioning, Ford has never stated whether the Mustang does or does not meet those 2012 safety standards, the car could easily already be compliant. Some automakers, including Ford, do have their own safety standards which iften exceed what the government requires.

The 5.0L driveline is expected to add about 25-40lb, the chassis will weigh about what it does now. That means a base GT is probably going to start in the high 3500 to low 3600lb neighborhood, or about 300lb less than a base Camaro SS weighs in at right now

They wouldnt have to change the chassis of the whole car. The doors get a brace across them, and the roof gets more bracing across it. How is that a complete chassis redesign. The Mustang does not carry side curtain airbags for driver head protection. That would make it non-compliant. Also the doors and the roof have not been reinforced anymore than the previous models. The rollover rating it recieved for the 2010 model actually did come out better than 1.5x the unsprung weight. It was 1.53, but still not the required 3x. The weight of the Mustang now is 3550. With the upgraded drivetrain you are looking at around 3600 ill agree with you there. With the upgrades for safety tho you are looking around 3700lbs. That would be around 100lbs less than the Camaro not 300lbs.

[RetroDude]

From the way I see it.... The Camaro is light years ahead of the Mustang and the best is yet to come!

2011 - Camaro Convertible Debuts
2012 - Camaro 45th Anniversary Models and possibly a Z28 too!

2009 - Mustang, the best they've ever made since it's inception.
2010 - Mustang, the ugliest ass I've ever seen on a Mustang!

Plain and simple..... Camaro is worth every penny, while the Mustang falls short and proves why it is just a "PONY" IMO.

[syr74]

Originally Posted by Hesh

They wouldnt have to change the chassis of the whole car. The doors get a brace across them, and the roof gets more bracing across it. How is that a complete chassis redesign. The Mustang does not carry side curtain airbags for driver head protection. That would make it non-compliant. Also the doors and the roof have not been reinforced anymore than the previous models. The rollover rating it recieved for the 2010 model actually did come out better than 1.5x the unsprung weight. It was 1.53, but still not the required 3x. The weight of the Mustang now is 3550. With the upgraded drivetrain you are looking at around 3600 ill agree with you there. With the upgrades for safety tho you are looking around 3700lbs. That would be around 100lbs less than the Camaro not 300lbs.

And I'm still asking why they would bother to make these changes on what would be a lame duck model? The changeover to these standards doesn't even start until September 2012....literally three yers and change from now....and isn't required to be completed until 2017. Why would they update a model for the sake of one model year or less when they don't have to?

Trust me, I am not guessing, there is no chassis upgrade coming for 2011.....nothing. There wont be one coming for 2012 either for that matter. For at least two model years the Camaro will be dealing with a Mustang GT that packs about 400hp backed by a six speed and which weighs nearly what the current model does. If you are going to hope for performance parity then I suggest you hope that they somehow screw up the gearing or that the torque curve isn't as stout as rumors indicate, because the weight gain just isn't going to happen.

[diV6]

Originally Posted by Hesh

They wouldnt have to change the chassis of the whole car. The doors get a brace across them, and the roof gets more bracing across it. How is that a complete chassis redesign. The Mustang does not carry side curtain airbags for driver head protection. That would make it non-compliant. Also the doors and the roof have not been reinforced anymore than the previous models. The rollover rating it recieved for the 2010 model actually did come out better than 1.5x the unsprung weight. It was 1.53, but still not the required 3x. The weight of the Mustang now is 3550. With the upgraded drivetrain you are looking at around 3600 ill agree with you there. With the upgrades for safety tho you are looking around 3700lbs. That would be around 100lbs less than the Camaro not 300lbs.

I did not know this. It's nice when you come across a post on the internet where someone actually knows what theyre talking about and can cite facts to support their claims.

Edit- wait, can someone explain to me these new safety standards? they go into effect 2012 but don't need to be completed till 2017? So when would the mustang need them implemented by?

[Bocephus]

Originally Posted by syr74

A question which I have posed before and the Chevy faithful overlook. For all they know Mustang may already meet the 2012 standards.

We do know that it got 5 star rations for all types of crash testing.

[Hesh]

Actually they have to be in place by August 2012, not 2017. I do not know where he came up with 2017 from. Also, yes the Mustang recieved a 5 star rating for the current standards. So exactly why is the newest version of the Mustang going to be as you call it a lame duck model. They are upgrading the drivetrain wouldnt it make more since to add the reinforcments now with the other upgrades that are coming.

[amaurictx]

Originally Posted by syr74

And I'm still asking why they would bother to make these changes on what would be a lame duck model? The changeover to these standards doesn't even start until September 2012....literally three yers and change from now....and isn't required to be completed until 2017. Why would they update a model for the sake of one model year or less when they don't have to?

Trust me, I am not guessing, there is no chassis upgrade coming for 2011.....nothing. There wont be one coming for 2012 either for that matter. For at least two model years the Camaro will be dealing with a Mustang GT that packs about 400hp backed by a six speed and which weighs nearly what the current model does. If you are going to hope for performance parity then I suggest you hope that they somehow screw up the gearing or that the torque curve isn't as stout as rumors indicate, because the weight gain just isn't going to happen.

Not saying you are wrong, but they have had another "lame duck model". In the Escape, which was one of the best selling in its category for awhile, with a redesign in 2008 they carried over the powertrain from 5+, then for the 2009 model they brought in a new 4cyl, new 6Speed trannys across the board and redisgned the V6. All models including the hybrid had more hp and better mpg's.

[syr74]

Originally Posted by amaurictx

Not saying you are wrong, but they have had another "lame duck model". In the Escape, which was one of the best selling in its category for awhile, with a redesign in 2008 they carried over the powertrain from 5+, then for the 2009 model they brought in a new 4cyl, new 6Speed trannys across the board and redisgned the V6. All models including the hybrid had more hp and better mpg's.

Yes, but that change realized an immediate benefit. For their investment in new engines Ford was rewarded with superior power and fuel economy, both of which make the vehicle more desirable and contribute to a stremalined product line by minimizing engine variants across the brands.

The Mustang is already the safest car in the segment and wont have to meet these new safety standards before the model is replaced. In other words, there would be absolutely no benefit to making these changes to this model. In fact, the only changes this would bring to the Mustang would be to make the car heavier, slower, and thirstier than it is now.

I don't see Ford spending money they don't have to in an effort to add safety features which aren't required to a car which is already the safest in the segment.