Why turn off the "nannies" with normal driving?

[OHIOSS]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

Amazing -- simply amazing.

I read these threads and I wonder.................


So - for all of you who think you're really great behind the wheel:

(...and I don't mean to belittle you, but I take great exception with your encouraging people to turn the traction control and stabilitrak off when they get behind the wheel......you are doing NO ONE a great service other than perhaps your ego...)

.....I have been to many of our 'tracks' that we sponsor. I've seen many "great drivers" - some of them famous race car drivers -- get behind the wheel of a Corvette or Camaro-- and make horrendous mistakes. THEY even admit that one of the best things we've ever done is to develop Stabilitrak. I distinctly remember one particular driver - very well known -- take a Camaro SS off the course sideways at an incredible speed - and I was certain that he'd roll the car. He DID deflate two tires........ (and we may have had to replace a seat cover.....)

But then - what do THEY know? Or our engineers, for that matter?

Did anyone miss the fact that race car drivers - some of the best in the world - have accidents?

Let me make something clear: as great as you think you are? You are not. Period. So stop telling people that it's OK to turn the "nannies" off. (stupid word- "nanny"...by the way....)

- I learned many years ago that you can lead a horse (or certain parts of the horse... ) ...to water, but you cannot make him drink it.

So -- for those of you who are 'great drivers' -- I hope I don't one day read of an accident involving your *incredible* driving skills. And I hope your "incredible" driving skills don't hurt or kill innocent people..............

You may not like what I'm saying - but again I will repeat: Your words encourage others to turn that switch to the 'off' setting - and I hold you responsible if something tragic happens. And I take great exception to your 'exceptionalism'.....so how 'bout just not posting and telling people it's OK? We won't miss your wisdom.




to the rest of you -- I apologize for taking such liberty with words -- but most of you have heard me say time and time again that I want each you around for a long time. And I really get upset when 'experts' encourage bad behaviour or worse. If my words stop ONE PERSON from doing something stupid - then I guess it's worth me upsetting a few people.

My apologies.

I am 50 years old and consider myself a pretty good driver but the first time I turned the safety stuff off I lost control. It happened so fast that once the rear end lost traction I let off the gas immediatly but immediatly wasn't fast enough. It happened so quick I didn't have a chance to do anything but hold on for the ride.

Call me goofy but it simply isn't worth the possible consequences to drive around with all of the safety stuff off. I will probably do it when I want to do something fun/stupid but not with normal driving which was my original question.....why would you??

I never heard the term "nannies" until I seen it mentioned on this forum. At first I didn't know what it meant but it appears to be what everyone calls the safety stuff.

Russ

[MYDLIFECRISIS]

Originally Posted by erik13

I never thought I'd see a bunch of grown men arguing about a button in a car.

But it's a magic button!!

[MrWray]

just for the record, ive never encouraged anyone to turn the TC off. i just said that i do, i dont give a rats ass what anyone else does with their car. i dont do burnouts,donuts, or speed like crazy, i just want my car at its full potential. i dont get the idea that if you turn the TC off that your gonna turn into this wreckless rage monster thats gonna endanger thousands of lives and kill people. its called f****** responsibility, you either have it or you dont. i am a "responsible" driver and i dont drive wreckless and do stupid shit. maybe chevy should make it where you cant disable the TC at all since some people are so worried about it, or better yet, why dont they make the camaro AWD

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

Help me understand how the car keeping itself from sliding around on snow and ice is a bad thing.

The way you and most others are phrasing comments like that is a window into your thought process.

The bad thing is people believing that it will always be able to do that. The truth is that it can't. None of these systems can create more tire grip than exists between the tires and the road surface.

What they can do is make better overall use of however much grip is available. But you can still exceed system capability to correct if you're clumsy or careless enough or going fast enough.


Norm

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

The way you and most others are phrasing comments like that is a window into your thought process.

The bad thing is people believing that it will always be able to do that. The truth is that it can't. None of these systems can create more tire grip than exists between the tires and the road surface.

What they can do is make better overall use of however much grip is available. But you can still esceed system capability to correct if you're clumsy or careless enough or going fast enough.


Norm

Same thing happens with snow and AWD vehicles. Many people get overconfident when driving because of the AWD and end up sliding off the road because of the security they feel for having it. Just because you have these driving assists does not mean you can rely on them to always catch you when you screw up. Good driving techniques should always be used no matter if these are on or off.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

Amazing -- simply amazing.

I read these threads and I wonder.................


So - for all of you who think you're really great behind the wheel:

(...and I don't mean to belittle you, but I take great exception with your encouraging people to turn the traction control and stabilitrak off when they get behind the wheel......you are doing NO ONE a great service other than perhaps your ego...)

I mean no disrespect here, and if I've got an ego it's because there is sufficient basis for belief found in my own driving history and that of my wife. I have to go back over 40 years in order to find anything other than parking lot damage and at least 35 to find an incident where a ST system might have proved beneficial. Between the two of us, we're closing in on a million miles driven. Less than 30,000 of that is with stability control and/or TC, and there's barely 150,000 miles under our belts with ABS. I don't know if that's good enough to meet your definition of "great", but it's been pretty darn good as lived through.

I realize that none of the above guarantees that I won't get into a preventable accident tomorrow. Then again, ST, TC, and ABS won't guarantee it either. Having them may (or may not) make it less likely.

My point here isn't about ego, it's about the simple fact that as long as you drive within the limits of yourself, the car, and the road and other conditions it is entirely possible to drive - safely -in the absence of the nannies. Nothing more, and certainly not as active pressure or influence on others to do so.


The implication that comes across in warnings against turning them off is that somehow those of us with long and successful driving experience are suddenly no longer sufficiently capable as drivers. That's perhaps how words like "nanny" and "training wheels" slip into the conversation.

If I was 40 years younger, I might not see as much infringement from these systems and perhaps be less inclined to think "nanny", etc. I can only hope that as an engineer myself I would at least understand that their capabilities are still limited by tire grip. I am not at all convinced that people in general know this at the instinctive gut-level.


Perhaps it really should be more of a vehicle-specific concern. SUVs, Smart cars, and the like which have an inherent disadvantage come to mind. There already is precedent for "fixing" shortcomings in either the vehicle dynamics or driver skill via recalibrating the ESC (that Lexus SUV matter of a couple years ago).

Quite frankly, it scares ME that instead of fixing the mechanical side it's that the vehicle dynamic limits are effectively lowered. It bothers me that system calibrations might not let me take advantage of future developments in tire technology or aftermarket-based chassis tuning efforts.


I will toss out a point that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet. Suppose that out of several cars that any given person currently owns, only one is equipped with stability control and only one with traction control. "Muscle memory" being what it is, don't you think that one should be able to make them all behave in similar fashion under extreme conditions? Or can it somehow be guaranteed that all extreme situations will occur while driving the fully equipped car? (didn't think so)


Yes, I understand that anybody can come to grief on a race track. That's a completely different environment and is properly a separate topic. Anybody who drives even near 10/10ths on the street is an accident actively looking for a place to happen. Driver error, for which the driver is responsible.



Scott - I know that you can't for a number of reasons publicly agree with anything I've posted above. All I'm hoping for is that you can at least understand where I'm coming from.

I can change the way I word a few things in the future, but not the way I think. Too many miles and too many years worth of inertia.


Norm

[HDRDTD]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I mean no disrespect here, and if I've got an ego it's because there is sufficient basis for belief found in my own driving history and that of my wife. I have to go back over 40 years in order to find anything other than parking lot damage and at least 35 to find an incident where a ST system might have proved beneficial. Between the two of us, we're closing in on a million miles driven. Less than 30,000 of that is with stability control and/or TC, and there's barely 150,000 miles under our belts with ABS. I don't know if that's good enough to meet your definition of "great", but it's been pretty darn good as lived through.

I realize that none of the above guarantees that I won't get into a preventable accident tomorrow. Then again, ST, TC, and ABS won't guarantee it either. Having them may (or may not) make it less likely.

My point here isn't about ego, it's about the simple fact that as long as you drive within the limits of yourself, the car, and the road and other conditions it is entirely possible to drive - safely -in the absence of the nannies. Nothing more, and certainly not as active pressure or influence on others to do so.


The implication that comes across in warnings against turning them off is that somehow those of us with long and successful driving experience are suddenly no longer sufficiently capable as drivers. That's perhaps how words like "nanny" and "training wheels" slip into the conversation.

If I was 40 years younger, I might not see as much infringement from these systems and perhaps be less inclined to think "nanny", etc. I can only hope that as an engineer myself I would at least understand that their capabilities are still limited by tire grip. I am not at all convinced that people in general know this at the instictive gut-level.


Perhaps it really should be more of a vehicle-specific concern. SUVs, Smart cars, and the like which have an inherent disadvantage come to mind. There already is precedent for "fixing" shortcomings in either the vehicle dynamics or driver skill via recalibrating the ESC (that Lexus SUV matter of a couple years ago).

Quite frankly, it scares ME that instead of fixing the mechanical side it's that the vehicle dynamic limits are effectively lowered. It bothers me that system calibrations might not let me take advantage of future developments in tire technology or aftermarket-based chassis tuning efforts.


I will toss out a point that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet. Suppose that out of several cars that you currently own, only one is equipped with stability control and only one with traction control. "Muscle memory" being what it is, don't you think that one should be able to make them all behave in similar fashion under extreme conditions? Or can it somehow be guaranteed that all extreme situations will occur while driving the fully equipped car? (didn't think so)


Yes, I understand that anybody can come to grief on a race track. That's a completely different environment and is properly a separate topic. Anybody who drives even near 10/10ths on the street is an accident actively looking for a place to happen. Driver error, for which the driver is responsible.


I can change the way I word a few things, but not the way I think.

Scott - I know that you can't for a number of reasons publicly agree with anything I've posted above. All I'm hoping for is that you can at least understand where I'm coming from.


Norm

Norm, I understand your point of view and I don't disagree with it.

But......

I would say that for a vast number of average/ordinary/young drivers out there, diving a car like the ZL1 with the nannies left on for everyday normal driveing, is the smart thing to do for now.

yes there are inherit dangers in learning to assume/rely on nannies to keep you safe, and yes, IF you are experianced enough to know the handling personality and characteristics of your car and have the ability and experiance that allows you to take advantage of all that, having a nannie kick it might not be such a good thing.

But for all the 'amaturs' out there, for 'normal' everyday driveing, keep em on.

[justa25thTA]

Originally Posted by dcarlos55

Consider for just a moment how many 1st gen big block Camaros wound up in the junkyard because some idiot thought they could handle the power.

I have no doubt that there are plenty of people who know how to handle it, but there are still plenty who only think they can.

I know I can but I still leave the nannies on except at the track.

For those that only think they know how to handle that power, don't forget to include the fact that you turned the nannies off when you post the thread about how your car got totaled.

Of course they can handle the power, right up until they can't.

[90503]

My $.02...I believe everything that has been posted about turning off the nannies...I also believe everything that has been posted about why they should be kept on...

It is a feature on these cars that is probably the least understood and used (or not used) less than the emergency flashers...lol...

Human nature and curiosity being factored in, as well as a little boasting about driving skills, and some embarrassment others may feel being unfamiliar or perhaps not as good a driver as others, may push some to do something wreckless...I see this not only in nannies threads, but just about all others that sing the praises of mods for more horsepower, etc...

Not sure what my point is, lol...just sayin' sometimes we want to turn a deaf ear to what is actually unsafe in some cases...Not everyone should feel obligated to include a disclaimer that "this may not be for you, or the way you should drive", but all need to realize they are responsible for driving safely on the road...and cautioning others can't hurt....I think what Scott was trying to say, in regards to safety, is that others should not be "encouraged" to turn off the nannies....peace...

[justa25thTA]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

The way you and most others are phrasing comments like that is a window into your thought process.

The bad thing is people believing that it will always be able to do that. The truth is that it can't. None of these systems can create more tire grip than exists between the tires and the road surface.

What they can do is make better overall use of however much grip is available. But you can still esceed system capability to correct if you're clumsy or careless enough or going fast enough.


Norm

But if the "nannies" can control all of the wheels independently, it may be able to find traction where you cannot.

[Micawber]

I've felt the computer assists kick in enough times when I felt perfectly safe and in control to know that the Chevrolet engineers have designed in a large margin of safety for the 'average' driver.

Deluded or not, there are enough other people who also want to be able to shut off the computer assist to make Chevrolet build it into my car. They know they'd lose sales otherwise. I would never counsel anyone else to turn those systems off. I'm just glad I have the choice for myself.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by justa25thTA

But if the "nannies" can control all of the wheels independently, it may be able to find traction where you cannot.

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

What they can do is make better overall use of however much grip is available.

That's pretty much what I said in slightly different words.

Actually, I was looking a little deeper, because simply finding more traction is not always the final answer. Where you find it also matters.

Keep in mind that sometimes, less is better (or at least is no worse).


Example:
If the tail starts running wide to the left in a right turn, you would not want the system to find and use all of a large amount of new-found grip at the right front tire. That could easily exaggerate your tailhappiness if all of the other tires were still in a low-grip condition.


If you're getting the idea that certifying these systems to cope with the wide variety of situations we encounter in just normal daily driving is a huge engineering and testing undertaking, you're getting it right.

Between that and the obvious liability concerns is why you can't find aftermarket "nanny systems" to backfit to your 1st/2nd/3rd gen F-body. As far as I know, you can't even buy a user-calibratable ABS system.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Micawber

I would never counsel anyone else to turn those systems off. I'm just glad I have the choice for myself.

This ↑↑↑. Seriously.


Norm

[OHIOSS]

When I asked this question I never expected someone like Scott to comment but I'm sure glad you did. I was curious how GM felt about turning off the safety stuff and you answered that loud and clear.

Russ