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Old 07-23-2014, 01:16 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by lbls1 View Post
I have my doubts but anything could happen. I have a sneaking suspicion that GM may not have intended to get caught in a heated war after the GT500. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Edit: I read the quote, and I will re-state a thought I had about the Camaro and the pony car segment. If the Corvette will be used to combat the Camaro's rivals, then it begs the question of why the Camaro exists in the first place. GM did a great job in re-defining Camaro's standard of performance, but they also will have to be careful with its image. First and foremost, the Camaro's origin is based as an affordable performance car for the street as well as the track. We've already seen the Camaro's price and affordability go out of reach of some of its target customers; Will those same customers accept Chevy's reasoning for not making the Camaro a viable challenger to its rivals??? It handles great, no doubt; In the world of drag racing, street performance and bragging rights, sometimes having less power is a bit of a hard sell. I caution GM and Chevy that they should not totally change the focus of the Camaro by not making it compete against its pony car rivals. If the pricier Corvette is left to combat the likes of the Challenger and GT500, then why should one pay a premium for a Camaro that won't challenge its rivals???
We won't know what GM has in store until they are willing to let us know.

What you get is the generic stock answer because they don't want to tip their hand on future products or developement.

Doing that could cost someone with loose lips their job.
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Old 07-23-2014, 01:37 PM   #30
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The Challenger has been behind in sales since day one to Ford and GM. The production of the Hellcat isn't going to change where they fall into line. If anything it's only going to hurt Viper sales even more for them. GM will never produce a car that has more power than a Corvette and they will always use it to do their heavy lifting when competing with other muscle and sports cars. If you're a true Camaro fan, then you know you're the bastard child of the Corvette and all of these threads and discussions are a waste of time. Corvette > Camaro and it will never change.
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Old 07-23-2014, 01:38 PM   #31
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Yes, 2 years, you are right.

But I can certainly see a $60k 460HP aluminum framed fiberglass sportscar with a V8 rumble and honest 29 mpg highway appealing to the same kind of buyer.

They are running 118mph trap speeds, and go close to 200mph up top.

The Vette is a good performance value, even if HP@Brochure isn't on top.

It's 1/2 the price of the Viper, same weight, and far better as a car, so not a Viper competitor.

If your toy budget is $60k, where are you shopping?

With the Hellcat, you are paying a pretty serious penalty in all other aspects of performance just to have the engine rating. Top speed and 0-60mph times are about the same as the Vette.

707HP is a hellavu number. But much like the Z/28, the Hellcat is a very focused design, giving up attributes for the sake of a single purpose.

Much like I would not suggest a Z/28 is the better value than a Stingray, even if it is faster around a racecourse, I don't see the Hellcat's potential timeslips worth the trade-offs either.

My guess is people will put their mod'd Hellcats into the 9's within 6 months of the release date. And they will join all the other 9 second hotrods out there.

10's have already been done in stock cars.
You are right on most points here, but the hellcat and vette are targeted at two very different buyers. That's why I don't see the comparison. I agree about the vette. It really is a bargain for what you get, but most people looking at and craving 700HP Mopars don't really care about Corvettes. At least in my little neck of the woods. Same goes for vette guys around here. They don't give Al Bundy Mopars a second look. I'm the outcast in the group, but my heart would lie with a 707HP Challenger any day over a equality priced Vette that will most likely out perform it in many ways.
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Old 07-23-2014, 02:23 PM   #32
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Let's see how much the Gen 6 weighs, then what the 1/4 mile time are.

Let's also see the Nurburgring time of the Hellcat.

After all, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
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Old 07-23-2014, 02:33 PM   #33
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The ZL1 does not need to play the hellcat game. The Hellcat needs to play the ZL1 game.

GM Marketing Claim: Nuremberg (don't crucify the spelling)
Why? Because whole car, magnetic ride, hp, etc . . .

Dodge Marketing Claim: 1/4 mile
Why? Because it can't compete on suspension, handling, etc . . .

Dodge needs to beat the ZL1 at the track, not the 1/4 mile.
Much harder to modify a Dodge to beat the ZL1 at the track than to modify a ZL1 to beat a dodge at the 1/4 mile.
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Old 07-23-2014, 02:41 PM   #34
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^true!
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Old 07-23-2014, 02:45 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by I call it Vera View Post
The ZL1 does not need to play the hellcat game. The Hellcat needs to play the ZL1 game.

GM Marketing Claim: Nuremberg (don't crucify the spelling)
Why? Because whole car, magnetic ride, hp, etc . . .

Dodge Marketing Claim: 1/4 mile
Why? Because it can't compete on suspension, handling, etc . . .

Dodge needs to beat the ZL1 at the track, not the 1/4 mile.
Much harder to modify a Dodge to beat the ZL1 at the track than to modify a ZL1 to beat a dodge at the 1/4 mile.

I agree with you but the problem is here in America people value 1/4 miles times and HP ratings. In terms of marketing Dodge is exactly where they want to be.
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Old 07-23-2014, 02:51 PM   #36
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I don't know why anyone is comparing this car to the vette. The vette is vipers competitor and a winning one at that all around if you ask me. Face it, the Hellcat will rule for now. The question is if GM and Ford will allow it for very long. I've said before. these companies are playing us all by doing this flip flop of ruling the planet with performance. It keeps us buying. I believe that they are all in it together.
The Vette in all it's iterations is a much more attainable car. It's Z06 and ZR1 iterations are also much more common than a Viper. I don't know about you, but I never see Vipers around DC or in NY and they are two of the wealthiest areas in the country. I see plenty of Z06s and ZR1s. Chrysler probably sells more buses than it sells Vipers every year.

There is no competition between the Viper and the Vette.
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Old 07-23-2014, 03:11 PM   #37
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Keep in mind that this is one guy's opinion. No one outside of GM's inner circle know what their plans are.

Remember that opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one and they usually stink!
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Old 07-23-2014, 03:50 PM   #38
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I agree with you but the problem is here in America people value 1/4 miles times and HP ratings. In terms of marketing Dodge is exactly where they want to be.
Odd. Then why is the Prius a big seller? It is perhaps the slowest car in it's segment. It isn't even the most economical.

And the F-body (Camaro/Firebird) died in 2002 due to lagging sales, even though they were much quicker than the Mustangs which survived.

And Ford once again pulled the plug on a flagship performance car.

No, it's not as simple as true performance. It's PERCEPTION that drives fashion sales. Ouch. Yes, Camaros, Mustangs, Challengers, Corvettes, Vipers, Porsches, etc, are mostly purchased by people who want possess an image of what a certain automobile is perceived as. It's Fashion.

Fashion sense in the auto world is the hardest thing to change. More cars were killed due to fashion than engineers ever destroyed.

I think the Fashion Winner of the 21st century has to have been Cadillac. It was about to be shut down, and somehow, what was considered an overpriced, overweight, underperforming, land yacht for the Geritol crowd became Hip-Slick-N-Cool.

One of the famous losers was Pontiac. While the Firebird was at the peak of it's game performance wise, and most of it's products were well engineered, they just could not invited to party. Stood up on Prom Night.

Dodge is still struggling with Fashion. Only time will tell if they can get to hang out with the cool kids again. It certainly does not help that Fiat's rep in the US is poor. Yes, Fiat is not shiit anymore, but it's hard to kill a perception.
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Old 07-23-2014, 04:02 PM   #39
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Odd. Then why is the Prius a big seller? It is perhaps the slowest car in it's segment. It isn't even the most economical.

And the F-body (Camaro/Firebird) died in 2002 due to lagging sales, even though they were much quicker than the Mustangs which survived.

And Ford once again pulled the plug on a flagship performance car.

No, it's not as simple as true performance. It's PERCEPTION that drives fashion sales. Ouch. Yes, Camaros, Mustangs, Challengers, Corvettes, Vipers, Porsches, etc, are mostly purchased by people who want possess an image of what a certain automobile is perceived as. It's Fashion.

Fashion sense in the auto world is the hardest thing to change. More cars were killed due to fashion than engineers ever destroyed.

I think the Fashion Winner of the 21st century has to have been Cadillac. It was about to be shut down, and somehow, what was considered an overpriced, overweight, underperforming, land yacht for the Geritol crowd became Hip-Slick-N-Cool.

One of the famous losers was Pontiac. While the Firebird was at the peak of it's game performance wise, and most of it's products were well engineered, they just could not invited to party. Stood up on Prom Night.

Dodge is still struggling with Fashion. Only time will tell if they can get to hang out with the cool kids again. It certainly does not help that Fiat's rep in the US is poor. Yes, Fiat is not shiit anymore, but it's hard to kill a perception.
Very good point indeed. As I said above, I do believe Dodge will not be in fashion until they loose the AL Bundy Dodge Dart stigma. I think the hellcat will help that as long as it has some time to shine. GM and Ford will probably trump it pretty quickly if history is reliable.
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Old 07-23-2014, 04:47 PM   #40
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Not sure if anyone has read MotorTrends article yet. Appears the handling on a road course is still a bit MEH..

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That said, the Hellcat still handles like a Challenger. Navigating the Challenger through curvy parts of the road or track is, ahem, challenging.
Article
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Old 07-23-2014, 05:55 PM   #41
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I agree with you but the problem is here in America people value 1/4 miles times and HP ratings. In terms of marketing Dodge is exactly where they want to be.

Then why has the ZL1 been such a positive move for GM? In my opinion, it gained it's respect from the other manufacturers when the Nurburgring times were viewed and published. Most companies didn't focus on the road course/track aspect of a production car until Cadillac started using it's "Nurburgring times" in advertising. Yes there is segment that ONLY wants to do the 1/4 mile. That gets old after awhile at least it would for me. I have drag raced before and the "down time" waiting for everyone to get their runs in killed it for me. Road course, totally different experience that physically drains you after an all day session. The best thing is you get plenty of track time.
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Old 07-23-2014, 06:11 PM   #42
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Then why has the ZL1 been such a positive move for GM?
At the time the Zl1 was best all around for the money. Times changed now dodge has it beat. For most the challenger will handle just fine. On muscle cars 1/4 mile has always been the factor and it seems GM has lost focus on it.
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