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Old 10-24-2020, 09:08 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
What I find amusing in this discussion is when comparing a Camaro to the Mustang or any competitor it’s about the numbers. From HP to 1/4 mile and lap times to determine which is better.

When you bring up the performance of an EV it suddenly becomes about feel and sound and and the conversation suddenly is very subjective.

Just an observation.
Well, both Mustang and Camaro have V8's so when comparing the 2 that aspect is not really relevant in the discussion as it is present in both options.

Only when you bring in EV to the choice do you have an option with no 'soul'.
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Old 10-24-2020, 12:27 PM   #44
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I like it but unfortunately it's unattainable for most. The EV market will bomb if the prices don't come down. I have nothing against EV vehicles and there are a few that I think are really cool. But there are many other vehicles in the $100K price range that I'd rather have than this one. I really don't understand the thinking here... if you want the segment to survive, then you have to appeal to the masses. It doesn't matter how great it looks or how much power it has if only a select few can afford one.

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Old 10-24-2020, 12:42 PM   #45
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It absolutely is.

Bio-fuel is a product of fuel from living plants. & as gaseous byproduct of organic breakdown of plant matter it is a type bio fuel. The definition of modern process rather than natural events is a stupid misnomer.

I get what you are saying, but the reality is there is really no such thing as “fossil fuels”, as there is really not enough animal matter ever present as to be a major contributing volume.

Even raw crude has predominant genetic traces to modern plant life.



Right, like the customers that we have that show up in their Tesla’s & ask to plug into our shop so they can get their butts back home to their big city.

I really feel like telling them to bring a gas generator with them & charge their own car rather than mooching off me. Then the reality may just sink in the gas they put in their generator would have been better off just put in their car.
What are your thoughts on vehicles that run strictly off of propane? My nephew has a rock crawler that runs propane with a turbo..its impressive
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Old 10-24-2020, 12:46 PM   #46
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The Hummer EV is ugly but I like the performance potential. Makes me curious for an E or Hybrid Camaro... so long as it isn't as ugly as all the other EVs on the market. Ugh.
I agree..would like to see this technology in a nice looking 7 gen camaro , if we ever get one ..not sure why they could not just make a inexpensive Avalanche instead of a super expensive hummer.
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Old 10-24-2020, 12:49 PM   #47
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What are your thoughts on vehicles that run strictly off of propane? My nephew has a rock crawler that runs propane with a turbo..its impressive
If we are talking strictly a vapor fuel it is pretty decent. A/F ratio is richer than NG, with slightly less energy density.
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Old 10-24-2020, 12:58 PM   #48
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If we are talking strictly a vapor fuel it is pretty decent. A/F ratio is richer than NG, with slightly less energy density.
Strictly off vapor, and its amazing how long the engine oil will last and not break down with this set up..maybe some ev crossbreed propane turbo would be nice alternative before going completely ev.
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Old 10-24-2020, 01:39 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
What I find amusing in this discussion is when comparing a Camaro to the Mustang or any competitor it’s about the numbers. From HP to 1/4 mile and lap times to determine which is better.

When you bring up the performance of an EV it suddenly becomes about feel and sound and and the conversation suddenly is very subjective.

Just an observation.
Exactly!! I'll go one step further. If someone adds a part to a Toyota or Honda (or even a Mustang) that provides no performance benefit and it's strictly to make the car look (or feel) faster, these same people scream "RICER!!!" and immediately commence ridiculing the owner.

I've rebuilt more than my share of engines and will continue to do so. I understand the passion but there's no reason to shun clearly superior performance. My hope is that the anti-EV crowd has an epiphany when they see a 1200 horsepower all electric Camaro shred 0-60 in 2 seconds. Then we can talk about what "feels" fast, unrelenting g forces or hearing a rumble from the tailpipe.
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Old 10-24-2020, 03:07 PM   #50
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there is more to cars than performance, looks, technology etc. for the most part, they all are different beings and that's what makes them what they are. touting electric cars on the guise of environmental concerns is comical at best. i think ultimately it's another step toward automation. that is the end goal, right? build everything to function 100% on its own so we, as a society, can do nothing.

everything has to be automatic. do it for me. i don't want to. its all busy work and below my pay grade.

thankfully i'll be dead long before too much more of that blossoms. in the mean time, fcuk electric cars and everything associated with them.
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Old 10-24-2020, 03:08 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Frankie18SS View Post
Exactly!! I'll go one step further. If someone adds a part to a Toyota or Honda (or even a Mustang) that provides no performance benefit and it's strictly to make the car look (or feel) faster, these same people scream "RICER!!!" and immediately commence ridiculing the owner.

I've rebuilt more than my share of engines and will continue to do so. I understand the passion but there's no reason to shun clearly superior performance. My hope is that the anti-EV crowd has an epiphany when they see a 1200 horsepower all electric Camaro shred 0-60 in 2 seconds. Then we can talk about what "feels" fast, unrelenting g forces or hearing a rumble from the tailpipe.

One day it will happen, now is not that day. Too expensive and it means nothing to me if I can't go 600+ or more miles in a day without stopping needlessly for an hr to charge. If good enough I might be able to get over the soulless aspect, but I'm not sure of that yet.
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Old 10-24-2020, 03:26 PM   #52
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Strictly off vapor, and its amazing how long the engine oil will last and not break down with this set up..maybe some ev crossbreed propane turbo would be nice alternative before going completely ev.
If you are going to Hybrid/ vapor fuel might as well be NG. It’s way more abundant in simple refinement form. The main issue I see with LNG/CNG, as much research has found, is the the difference in process vs LPG to obtain liquid form. While LNG contains more energy/mass than LPG, if stored & consumed in vapor form it has a much lower energy/volume.
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Old 10-24-2020, 07:45 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
What I find amusing in this discussion is when comparing a Camaro to the Mustang or any competitor it’s about the numbers. From HP to 1/4 mile and lap times to determine which is better.

When you bring up the performance of an EV it suddenly becomes about feel and sound and and the conversation suddenly is very subjective.

Just an observation.

With lap times, Camaro vs Mustang has not been all about the numbers. A lot of it durability (over heating and such). I think Camaro has targeted the track day enthusiast more than Mustang.... or for that matter many other brands. I don't know of any brand that has very openly warrantied cars that get track time.
The only comparable EV is can think is the ~$60k Model 3 Performance. And it is impressive, but i think it's still difficult to do a typical track event. That is, to spend 2hrs driving to the track, 1hrs on the track and 2hrs to go home. There needs to be a lot of charging involved in that situation.
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Old 10-26-2020, 06:53 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Frankie18SS View Post
I've rebuilt more than my share of engines and will continue to do so. I understand the passion but there's no reason to shun clearly superior performance. My hope is that the anti-EV crowd has an epiphany when they see a 1200 horsepower all electric Camaro shred 0-60 in 2 seconds. Then we can talk about what "feels" fast, unrelenting g forces or hearing a rumble from the tailpipe.
The technology to make a production-based car accelerate from 0 to 60 in 2 seconds (regardless if it's electric, hybrid, or ICE) is very limited in today's world. This will make the car very expensive. A $100,000+ Camaro does not sound appealing to me. Additionally, a mass-produced car that accelerates that quick sounds very dangerous in this world of bad drivers.

I'm old school, so I prefer my rumbly exhaust note over the silence of an EV. What if something broke on a high-performance EV car? How do you troubleshoot? How much would the part/parts cost? Can the dealer only fix it? What happens when warranty is done? Is the part replacement going to be more expensive than the car itself? EV's are just too scary for me, especially if I hold on to the car for a long time..
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Old 10-27-2020, 08:09 AM   #55
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I'm old school, so I prefer my rumbly exhaust note over the silence of an EV. What if something broke on a high-performance EV car? How do you troubleshoot? How much would the part/parts cost? Can the dealer only fix it? What happens when warranty is done? Is the part replacement going to be more expensive than the car itself? EV's are just too scary for me, especially if I hold on to the car for a long time..
EVs will likely be cheaper to operate and maintain in the long run. But I agree, I would still chose a V8 over an EV Camaro, in the same way i'd choose a M6 over an A10 even if it's slower. At the same time I realize we'll be aged off by a generation of folks that don't care about those things or even want to drive on their own. It's why racing is dying.
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Old 10-29-2020, 09:32 PM   #56
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I still say the hybrid will be more appealing to the masses. You need to be able to charge on the go. Then you can take extended trips without the recharge anxiety. EV is a nice green gimmick but how nice will it be when power companies slap a nice healthy surcharge on your "at home" charging station?
I would consider a performance non-plugin hybrid, but not a plug-in hybrid or EV.

I'll always be a rebel though.
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