Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Roto-Fab
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Engine | Drivetrain | Powertrain Technical Discussions > Forced Induction - V8


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-06-2020, 02:28 PM   #15
xc_SS/RS


 
Drives: 2010 Camaro SS/RS
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: somewhere in MD
Posts: 4,679
The car doesn’t necessarily need to be tuned twice if your fueling data is very accurate and the flex fuel/injector data you input for the computer is accurate as well. I remember when I switched to flex fuel that I didn’t really need to adjust my fueling data because it’s so accurate (thank you OCD) I did anyway, but even WOT was good on my first tankful of E85

It’s a good idea to datalog to be sure you don’t need to make adjustments
__________________
2010 2SS/RS
Z/28 intake, NW102, 102 ported rod-mod intake, speed engineering LT's w/ cats, 3" catback, ATI -10% pulley, GM flex fuel injectors, DSX flex fuel sensor, MGW shifter, HP Tuners, some suspension work, stickers and a little weight loss. 12.63 @113.53
xc_SS/RS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2020, 02:30 PM   #16
dreksnot
Served USN - Atomic Chimp
 
dreksnot's Avatar
 
Drives: 13 Camaro LSX427 TT
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Posts: 1,294
If your tuner is worth a squat, one time to the tuner and you're done. Since the stock tune for the car is all ready for the pump gas, all that needs to be "fixed" is populating the flex fuel tables, and you're good to go. However, if you changed a number of things on the car and need a regular tune (for pump gas), then you will need to have it retuned for pump gas, swap out the gas in the tank for E85, and do more tuning to get the right numbers in the tables. IMO, I don't think the tuner should charge you double, but should charge you for more than a standard tune (since it will take more time - time is money).

So, two tunes in the car are not necessary. Having to swap tunes each time you swap a tank of gas is not necessary. As you titled this thread "DUAL TUNE," that's not necessary.

Getting the car tuned twice is somewhat accurate. Optimize the pump gas tune, then optimize the flex fuel tune.
__________________

In excess of 1,000WHP
LSX427 | AGP 65/65 TT | BTR Equalzer Intake | Trickflow 245cc cathedral | BTR custom cam | AEM TruBoost | n2mb WOT | ID-1700x | NGK 4554 | DSX Flex Fuel Sensor | AGP's Fore Triple Fuel | Monster LT1-S Triple | 3.25 DSS Proform 9", CF driveshaft, 1400hp axles | Hurst Line Lock | MGW Retro Short Throw w/old skool Hurst T-handle | ADM solid subframe mounts | Prothane Motor Mounts | Revshift Poly Trans insert | Moreno camber/caster plates
dreksnot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2020, 02:45 PM   #17
Clarkstar

 
Clarkstar's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 1SS 1LE
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Ixonia wi
Posts: 1,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreksnot View Post
If your tuner is worth a squat, one time to the tuner and you're done. Since the stock tune for the car is all ready for the pump gas, all that needs to be "fixed" is populating the flex fuel tables, and you're good to go. However, if you changed a number of things on the car and need a regular tune (for pump gas), then you will need to have it retuned for pump gas, swap out the gas in the tank for E85, and do more tuning to get the right numbers in the tables. IMO, I don't think the tuner should charge you double, but should charge you for more than a standard tune (since it will take more time - time is money).

So, two tunes in the car are not necessary. Having to swap tunes each time you swap a tank of gas is not necessary. As you titled this thread "DUAL TUNE," that's not necessary.

Getting the car tuned twice is somewhat accurate. Optimize the pump gas tune, then optimize the flex fuel tune.
This^^^
__________________
2013 1le- Katech 416 short block, TSP custom grind cam, LOD intake, cnc heads by F.ED., Nick William's 102mm T.B., CORN fed, Pedders coilovers. Performance street alingnment by Justin at Lake Country Alignment and dyno tune by Late Model Throttle.

603 h.p. 495 ft lbs tq.
Clarkstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2020, 04:24 PM   #18
RobZL1
fo'shizZL1
 
RobZL1's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 ZL1
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: ATL
Posts: 640
Just to be perfectly clear for the OP:

You take it to the shop once, they handle all of the tuning duties on 93 and flex fuel, then you just drive and enjoy once you get it back from them. You pump in 93, or E85, or any combination to your liking and just warm it up and beat on it with no worries.

No further intervention required on your part until you start modding again.
__________________
2014 Red Hot #1503 | TBD SAE | RotoFab | 28% OD | GP Tuning 2.5 Cam | 2" TSP LT's | JMS BAP | ID850 | TR7IX | MSD Wires | APEX Catch Can | Metco Breather | Monster LT1-S Triple | C&R HEX | RotoFab Res | Racing Brake Rotors | Self-Tuned w/ HPT
RobZL1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2020, 04:34 PM   #19
brick59
Sucker Punch
 
brick59's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 Black ZL1, 2007 Silverado LTZ
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: N.E. Ohio
Posts: 204
As long as you have a flex fuel sensor its one tune that needs to be tuned for both fuels
first your tuner tunes the car for what ever gas your running then you fill the tank with E
then he tunes it for the E part of the tune, then the sensor tells the ECM what the E content of the fuel is and the ECM adjust between the two set of tables but its one tune.

Of course you need all the supporting equipment to run E (injector, fuel pump etc...)
__________________
9.84 @ 142.5 MPH, Mass heads, Cam Motion LLR cam, Morel tie bar lifters, Crower roller rockers, Ported blower and snout, NW102 TB, 2.5/9.1 Pulleys, ID 1300, Fore, DSX, E85, Meth Injection, Chiller, Roto-Fab CAI, Kooks 2" Headers, H/F Cats, Corsa, Circle D, RPM, BMR, Carlyle Racing 15" conversion kit.
brick59 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2020, 05:26 PM   #20
Vanishing Point
 
Drives: 2011 Camaro SS, LSX, 4L80E
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: DFW
Posts: 68
I very much thank you all for your input. I think we did get distracted on some diversions along the way but I got my answer. I appreciate it.

First diversion: Got to have fuel system upgrades. Yeah.

Second diversion: All tuning should be done in one visit to the tuner. Well, yeah, whether you tune it for just E85 or tune it for both E85 and 93, why wouldn’t you do it in the same day, tuning session (visit to the tuner)?

But through that, I got my answer. I should expect they tune it once with E85 in it, drain it, tune it again with 93 (or vice versa). I should expect to pay more for that than just an E85 tune. Some people will refer to this process as one tune and some will refer to it as two tunes. I may not need to retune both if minor mod is done, but definitely for major mods.

I have clarity I didn’t have and appreciate you all for it. Thanks.

Last edited by Vanishing Point; 05-06-2020 at 06:53 PM.
Vanishing Point is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2020, 08:46 PM   #21
Batmanntexas

 
Batmanntexas's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 Camaro SS (2SS)
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Sanford, NC
Posts: 1,082
Just a thought, take your car to the tuner with about a 1/4 tank of 93 and 10-15 gallons of E85 in some fuel cans. No need to leave the shop, and all the tuning can be done in one shot.

-Scott
__________________
745RWHP/634RWTQ on 93 @ 10psi
806/676 on E85 @ 10psi

COTW 9/8/14
Batmanntexas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2020, 03:46 AM   #22
Vanishing Point
 
Drives: 2011 Camaro SS, LSX, 4L80E
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: DFW
Posts: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Batmanntexas View Post
Just a thought, take your car to the tuner with about a 1/4 tank of 93 and 10-15 gallons of E85 in some fuel cans. No need to leave the shop, and all the tuning can be done in one shot.

-Scott
Thanks for the thought. Thing is, it’s not hard to do (tune for both E85 and 93), and not hard to do it at the same time and place. That somehow became the issue in some others’ eyes, but it wasn’t my issue. I was just asking the question if it was necessary as one shop said yes and one said no, and of course charging respectively.

In fact, I’ve already had it tuned for both on the same visit when I upgraded to E85 flex in the first place. I took it to the tuner close to empty with 93 in it. They tuned it on 93, installed new fuel system components, filled and tuned it on E85. Charged for both tunes. Later, I went elsewhere and had it retuned with some other upgrades and they only tuned for E85. Said no need to tune for 93, ever, the computer would always adjust for it. Soon, I’m going to have yet a third shop retune it when I change blowers. I was just trying to know what to expect regarding whether the third shop should double tune like the first one or just an E85 tune like the second one.

The rudimentary step by step of how to get the tune(s) done are easily figured out. Which gas cans get filled, or which fuel gets tuned first or whether I tuned for one fuel, then took it home for some weird reason and tuned for the other the next day, or if I used my turn signals on the way there, or even have a the proper fuel system are really not the issue. But I appreciate the time and thought.

I think some people assign a meaning in their head to some words or phrases that aren’t the same assignment for other people. This tuning on one fuel, draining, then tuning on another fuel, to me (and to the shop that performed it) is two separate tunes. I called it that, and a “dual tune”. In some people’s heads its only two tunes if it left the shop and came back, so they brought that in as if that was the issue. It wasn’t. Let’s say some shop wanted to do a magazine review of various blowers. In the same day, back to back, they put a base tune on an NA car, then put blower A on. They’d have to retune for that blower. Then they took it off and installed blower B. They’d have to retune for that blower. Then, the same for blower C.

That would be four tunes. But some people think because they were all done on the same day, back to back, that is one tuning session, so one tune. If you differ and say it’s four tunes, they will say it’s only four tunes if you had four different visits, because in their mind a session is one tuning event. But in my mind a tune is an action, not a calendar day or a period of time. So I’m saying two tuning actions, two tunes on the bill, but they’re hearing one tune, taking it home for some reason, then tuning the other fuel on another day. That’s the only way their mind fits two tunes. It’s more of an insightful study of semantics than anything else. But like I said, in between all that I still got my answer, and I’m grateful for that.

Last edited by Vanishing Point; 05-07-2020 at 04:34 AM.
Vanishing Point is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2020, 07:51 AM   #23
Greenhornet2

 
Greenhornet2's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 Camaro 2SS LS3 Whipple
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,495
I dont know if this is true or not and nie curious. It seems to me if you tune for e85 you couldn't have to give for 93 octane given the 93 octane you use is good fuel it would simply be a mathematic equation to tune it down to the 93, the same way you don't have to write a tune for 80% E 60%E. 50%E with your set up. That seems to be what the second shop is saying and it makes sense to me.
__________________
Whipple 2.9 CAI ID1050x injectors JMS BAP JRE Rough Idle blower cam BTR .660 springs CHE trunnion kit 1 7/8 Speed Engineering long tubes 2.5 cat back borla atak ZL1 pump JRE flow control module JRE scoop 1.5" lowering springs BMR trailing arms and toe links 704WHP 603WTQ
Greenhornet2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2020, 09:54 AM   #24
dreksnot
Served USN - Atomic Chimp
 
dreksnot's Avatar
 
Drives: 13 Camaro LSX427 TT
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Posts: 1,294
Just to simplify matters, several tables are needed to be populated and dialed in correctly, and two DTCs enabled.

Here's a snapshot of the important tables, the first being a stock LS3 and the second with the FF sensor installed. JUST FOR REFERENCE.

The Flex Fuel Spark table multiplied by the PE/COT Spark Advance Correction Multi vs. Fuel Composition is what gets added/subtracted to the main spark table. Creates magic.

Of course, each tuner will have their own approach because we know whatever tuner you are working with is "more better" than "the other" tuner.

Just posting this to show it's not a overly complex process, but the numbers in the FF spark adder table are important to obtain the optimal add-spark power to take advantage of E85, but still be safe. A good dyno tune will show what's best.
Attached Images
  
__________________

In excess of 1,000WHP
LSX427 | AGP 65/65 TT | BTR Equalzer Intake | Trickflow 245cc cathedral | BTR custom cam | AEM TruBoost | n2mb WOT | ID-1700x | NGK 4554 | DSX Flex Fuel Sensor | AGP's Fore Triple Fuel | Monster LT1-S Triple | 3.25 DSS Proform 9", CF driveshaft, 1400hp axles | Hurst Line Lock | MGW Retro Short Throw w/old skool Hurst T-handle | ADM solid subframe mounts | Prothane Motor Mounts | Revshift Poly Trans insert | Moreno camber/caster plates
dreksnot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2020, 11:44 AM   #25
Vanishing Point
 
Drives: 2011 Camaro SS, LSX, 4L80E
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: DFW
Posts: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenhornet2 View Post
I dont know if this is true or not and nie curious. It seems to me if you tune for e85 you couldn't have to give for 93 octane given the 93 octane you use is good fuel it would simply be a mathematic equation to tune it down to the 93, the same way you don't have to write a tune for 80% E 60%E. 50%E with your set up. That seems to be what the second shop is saying and it makes sense to me.
And youíre not the only one of that opinion. And I see how that definitely COULD make sense. I just donít know enough to say it certainly does work out that way.

I have said, I got my answer, and that the answer was a dual tune, I guess because that was the opinion of the loudest most confidently stated answers. But I certainly donít mean to dismiss those on the other side of the opinion. And if Iím honest, I am still getting two answers, just as I had from the two shops.

I guess the way I see it, if really only a tune on E85 is required, but 93 is tuned anyway, it wonít hurt anything (other than my wallet). But on the other hand if two are best and I only got one, it could run rough, possibly even causing detonation or God knows what problems, so Iíd rather err on the side of a second not necessary tune than an omitted necessary second tune.
Vanishing Point is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2020, 12:56 PM   #26
silversleeper
Some ol' dude
 
silversleeper's Avatar
 
Drives: '13 ZL1
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: California
Posts: 923
IDK if this will make things more clear or confused to summarize what was already said.


Your car can already run with some e85. The O2 sensors and system will auto adjust to add more fuel and it will run.
I could be wrong but I didn't see an actual flex fuel sensor in my silverado despite it being advertised as flex fuel. I think it only does the above and throws more fuel at it but does not add spark advance that would be beneficial because without a sensor of how much alcohol is in the mix it doesn't know close enough how much spark adv to add so I think it doesn't add any. The result is it runs ok but my butt dyno feels slightly less power and worse mpg on e85.
The Camaro is a similar situation. There is a "virtual e85 sensor" setting you can turn on in the tune, and the crappy result is same as above as far as I could tell. You need a electro alchol sensor to read exactly how much alcohol you are running to get things right.
I bought DSX' e85 sensor kit and I'm glad I did. You likely need bigger injectors and more fuel pump depending on your setup and how much e % you will run.

The good news is our car's computer is all ready to accept another data base table for e85 tune.
It's great because ethanol content varies by station and time of year and if you had some 91 or 93 already in the tank. After you fill in the e85 tables the computer will automatically interpolate or combine both gas and alcohol tables according to the mix it senses. It requires the OEM style e85 sensor, prebent tubing to plumb it in, powered off a coil pack plug, and one wire to a pin to the ecm. e85 makes more power especially if boosted. Much of that increase in HP is due to the high octane of e85 of around 108. Octane itself won't give you 1hp if your car doesn't advance the spark to take advantage of it. IIRC about 22* degrees is near ideal spark advance for power and if you have boost with 93octane or worse 91octane your computer must pull back lots of spark advance, especially if it is hot or you'll get knock and engine destruction. That's why the e85 cooling effect alone won't show a huge hp increase in a N/A Camaro because it isn't in need of more octane for spark advance without boost.

Now to the nomenclature and how many tunes.
You CAN tune your car and redo ONLY the gas tables to run perfect on e85. In other words over write the data it normally uses to burn gas and convert to e85 only "tune". The downside is it would be sh1t to run gas in it, and unless you bought known % ethanol like in race cans $ you won't know what's in it and the tune won't be quite right most of the time.
So, yes, it can be "one tune" and one table filled out and need a tank of exact 85% ethanol, or 100% ethanol etc. It would only run perfect with that tune for value.
What most of us that are not pro racers want, is to be able to use cheap pump e85 with unknown % of alcohol and throw it in the tank with ?? amount of gas still in there and run great. That is done by having BOTH tables populated in the tune, the alcohol table of enrichment and timing and the gas table of that. Oh there is a low octane gas table too if I'm not mistaken but that is usually not bothered with for people working on performance or e85 tuning.
The "tune" is one computer file. It can be uploaded and flashed to your ecm at one go. If a tuner has already dyno and street tested your type car, they don't really need to change the data they have developed. Often called a "canned tune" they can email you for upload if you have the HP tuners or stand alone handheld tuner with the file preloaded. I got one of these from JRE to populate my e85 tables for fuel and spark, and some increased boost pressure from pulley and CAI. I'm not getting spark knock and also the short term and long term fuel adjustments are good indicating as I vary the e85 to gas in the tank I'm good to go.
Your car will self adjust and learn up to a point for some mild individual mods and not need a retune. Once you go to bigger things like more e85, headers+ CAI+ cam etc it might cause engine damage or at the least not run good without a retune.
So for semantics is changing one computer file and uploading it called 1 tune, or 2, or 3 for low octane high octane and e85. Or e85 ONLY or mixed use which most of us want.

Last edited by silversleeper; 05-07-2020 at 01:28 PM.
silversleeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2020, 01:20 PM   #27
Greenhornet2

 
Greenhornet2's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 Camaro 2SS LS3 Whipple
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,495
It seems to me this is one of the "there's more than one way to skin a cat" answers.
__________________
Whipple 2.9 CAI ID1050x injectors JMS BAP JRE Rough Idle blower cam BTR .660 springs CHE trunnion kit 1 7/8 Speed Engineering long tubes 2.5 cat back borla atak ZL1 pump JRE flow control module JRE scoop 1.5" lowering springs BMR trailing arms and toe links 704WHP 603WTQ
Greenhornet2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2020, 02:10 PM   #28
Vanishing Point
 
Drives: 2011 Camaro SS, LSX, 4L80E
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: DFW
Posts: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by silversleeper View Post
You likely need bigger injectors and more fuel pump depending on your setup and how much e % you will run.
I’ve got the DSX FF sensor, triple Fore pumps, and ID1300 injectors.

I’m all set up for much more power available from a bigger blower. At around 700rwhp now on an undersized Edelbrock. Ready to go to the Kong 2650 full unit for over 1Krwhp but I lost oil pressure on the road. Had it towed to the newest (third attempt to find a decent tuner, that came highly recommended). They said three weeks till they can get to it. Ok. Understandable. I call after 4 weeks, for a status update. Got attitude for calling. Was told it will be started in a few more days. Checked today (6 weeks in), still not touched. We’ll let you know...

Just ****ing be honest with me. That would be a GREAT and highly unusual starting point. And if you really wanted to impress me, call me to tell me, hey, we know it’s been a month and a half, here’s why and what to expect, without me having to catch attitude by calling in. You’re just supposed to drop it off, leave it for months, never ask for status and hope some month it will drop out of the Twilight Zone to you. It was at the last place for...11 months, outside, damaged the finish, purposely broke the key off in the ignition, on and on.

Oh and I’ve asked this new place for an estimate on that Kong upgrade installed, three times for about 2 months now. Still no estimate. I won’t ask again. And I do my homework researching online and people I meet, who comes highly recommended. Doesn’t make any difference. Get the oil pressure issue fixed and find a fourth shop I guess.

There is so much demand I find these guys are usually divas with an attitude. They do what they want, when they want, how they want, and if you don’t like it, go elsewhere. I hold my tongue and grit and try to remain polite and ass kissing enough to be worthy of their services. Considering the only other option is to tow elsewhere and start waiting all over again, they’re right. They got me by the short and curlies. And in case you’re wondering, they are still at full capacity even through Covid19. It’s just the same thing everywhere and much worse in some places.

It was similar in Michigan. I thought maybe in this metroplex it might be different. Nope. I had some trouble on a road trip in the Cincinnati area. Got the best service I ever had from a company called Weapon X Motorsports. They were awesome. Wish they’d move down here.

Sorry. That’s been building up for a long time.

If you’re a tuner in the Dallas area (preferably NE suburbs) and you can do better than this, feel free to reach out. Despite my vent, I’m easy to work with if you don’t **** me over or lie to me, and can provide the most basic of customer service.

Last edited by Vanishing Point; 05-07-2020 at 03:21 PM.
Vanishing Point is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.