Z/28: Pay for the performance.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by kaneda

Hey guys,

under full disclosure, my name is Chris and I am a new employee at General Motors working out of their NYC offices (marketing is my trade by day, superhero by night). I come from a car-fanatic family and my father recently purchased a 2010 Ford GT500. It's Kona Blue with big bold white racing stripes running down the middle. Having spent about a 1,000 miles in that car, I will say, there's a lot to love, but also a lot GM can improve upon with the Z28. Again, because I am new at GM, I don't have access to inside info on the Camaro or Z28, but here is my neophyte assessment of the situation.

GM has to better the GT500. So many of you are focused on HP and Weight but the real advantage of the Camaro is the independent rear suspension. Launching the GT500 is a bitch. The car simply does not hook up very well. 9/10 times I could beat a GT500 to 60 with my old 2004 Subaru WRX STi. Getting the power to the wheels and getting those wheels to stick can make a world of difference. So expect the Z28 to have the advantage there.

The big questions I have about the Z28 is over all the fit and finish upgrades. Let’s assume the performance will be above that of the GT500. What else will your 50k get? I hope Chevy loads up the Z28 with the kind of amenities expected in a 50K muscle car (some of you may say it’s all about performance, but let’s be honest). Stuff like nicer interior, two-tone seats. Nav system with internet connection. Nicer wheels and unique body panels. The GT500 is so much more than a bolted on supercharger and some racing stripes. You really get a lot for the money.

I wouldn’t worry about the Z28 canabilizing the Vette. These are completely different cars with different driving charachterisitcs. Also, by the time the Z28 arrives, the Vette will be getting ready for a complete makeover. Every time I start to think 50K is a lot for a Mustang or Camaro, I go look at the price of an M3 or an Audi S4 and realize, they are performance bargains.

WELCOME and

[Vega]

Originally Posted by kaneda

Hey guys,

under full disclosure, my name is Chris and I am a new employee at General Motors working out of their NYC offices (marketing is my trade by day, superhero by night). I come from a car-fanatic family and my father recently purchased a 2010 Ford GT500. It's Kona Blue with big bold white racing stripes running down the middle. Having spent about a 1,000 miles in that car, I will say, there's a lot to love, but also a lot GM can improve upon with the Z28. Again, because I am new at GM, I don't have access to inside info on the Camaro or Z28, but here is my neophyte assessment of the situation.

GM has to better the GT500. So many of you are focused on HP and Weight but the real advantage of the Camaro is the independent rear suspension. Launching the GT500 is a bitch. The car simply does not hook up very well. 9/10 times I could beat a GT500 to 60 with my old 2004 Subaru WRX STi. Getting the power to the wheels and getting those wheels to stick can make a world of difference. So expect the Z28 to have the advantage there.

The big questions I have about the Z28 is over all the fit and finish upgrades. Let’s assume the performance will be above that of the GT500. What else will your 50k get? I hope Chevy loads up the Z28 with the kind of amenities expected in a 50K muscle car (some of you may say it’s all about performance, but let’s be honest). Stuff like nicer interior, two-tone seats. Nav system with internet connection. Nicer wheels and unique body panels. The GT500 is so much more than a bolted on supercharger and some racing stripes. You really get a lot for the money.

I wouldn’t worry about the Z28 canabilizing the Vette. These are completely different cars with different driving charachterisitcs. Also, by the time the Z28 arrives, the Vette will be getting ready for a complete makeover. Every time I start to think 50K is a lot for a Mustang or Camaro, I go look at the price of an M3 or an Audi S4 and realize, they are performance bargains.

I very much agree with you, i dont think GM should have any problem putting all they can into the Z/28 and not holding back because of the Corvette. They're two very different cars with different characteristics and very different customers. I believe the Corvette will always have an edge in weight and handling, even if the horsepower of the Camaro out-does it. But GM has to remember the Z/28 is meant to be a factory-built track car and you cant castrate that stallion just because of your flagship model. First because it would go against the idea of the Z/28 and second because it just wouldnt be a smart business strategy, im sure theres a MUCH larger market for the Camaro right now than the Corvette and so not holding back would reap in the money better. Also as mentioned the Corvette is getting an overhaul soon so demand for that will jump right back up, even if the Z/28 is faster and a better performer than the base C7 people will still want the C7 just because its a fresh model and mainly cause *duh duh duhhh* its a brand new friggin Corvette! hahaha, what else could you ask for!

I also veeery much agree that the Camaro's big advantage is its IRS (no not the vampires that kill your tax-returns, LOL) as much as performance enthusiests hate to admit it the GT500 really has a huge weakness in its rear end, it does not hook up well at all, i even saw a video of a GT500 vs an SS where the SS lost by about .2 in a drag race just cause it hooked up perfectly and the GT500 spun off the line. Now i know in drag racing .2 is a rather large difference but when you compare 540hp vs. 420hp it starts to make you scratch your head, the GT500 should have owned it by a lot more. That also makes me think a previous post may be true that just boosting an SS camaro to 550hp would make it out-perform the GT500, but i dont think GM would leave us out in the cold like that, im sure for the money they'd give you the full treatment of suspension, gearing, and exterior/interior styling all in one package

By the way how did you make it into that career? Thats pretty much my dream is to work for GM designing these cars and keeping the dream alive the way it should be ^_^ ....or maybe working for Dodge, since they need it right now, LOL! (burn-ish/truth kinda thing LOL)

[Sleestack]

Originally Posted by Vega

I also veeery much agree that the Camaro's big advantage is its IRS (no not the vampires that kill your tax-returns, LOL) as much as performance enthusiests hate to admit it the GT500 really has a huge weakness in its rear end, it does not hook up well at all, i even saw a video of a GT500 vs an SS where the SS lost by about .2 in a drag race just cause it hooked up perfectly and the GT500 spun off the line. Now i know in drag racing .2 is a rather large difference but when you compare 540hp vs. 420hp it starts to make you scratch your head, the GT500 should have owned it by a lot more. That also makes me think a previous post may be true that just boosting an SS camaro to 550hp would make it out-perform the GT500, but i dont think GM would leave us out in the cold like that, im sure for the money they'd give you the full treatment of suspension, gearing, and exterior/interior styling all in one package

Funny about the IRS, I have never read a review where the driver liked the handling characteristics of the Camaro with IRS vs. the GT500 (or GT for that matter). So, IRS does not do much for you if you cannot translate that into real world driving..... like you said, the jury is out if GM can fix this one. Traction can be solved with Drag Radials.


Again, the below comments are related to the Mustang GT... differences are greater vs. the GT500.


http://www.automobilemag.com/feature...ies/index.html

"Next, the drivers swap cars. When this session is over, Donohue is the guy wearing the big smile. "Just driving down pit lane, the Mustang seemed much lighter," he says. "The low-speed grip is so much better, and you can toss it into the corner sideways." Jones, on the other hand, looks worn out by the Camaro. "It's a pig," he says bluntly. "The brakes are much better, but it just won't turn. The Mustang is a lot more fun to drive.""

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Sleestack

Funny about the IRS, I have never read a review where the driver liked the handling characteristics of the Camaro with IRS vs. the GT500 (or GT for that matter). So, IRS does not do much for you if you cannot translate that into real world driving..... like you said, the jury is out if GM can fix this one. Traction can be solved with Drag Radials.


Again, the below comments are related to the Mustang GT... differences are greater vs. the GT500.


http://www.automobilemag.com/feature...ies/index.html

"Next, the drivers swap cars. When this session is over, Donohue is the guy wearing the big smile. "Just driving down pit lane, the Mustang seemed much lighter," he says. "The low-speed grip is so much better, and you can toss it into the corner sideways." Jones, on the other hand, looks worn out by the Camaro. "It's a pig," he says bluntly. "The brakes are much better, but it just won't turn. The Mustang is a lot more fun to drive.""

Like i said, its hard for some performance enthusiests to consider, but personally i believe it to be true that the IRS is a big advantage, ive seen the GT500 burn off the line one too many times for my taste. Now for the GT im all for the classic rear, i mean i love that they've perfected it SO much its amazing what they've done with it. Personally im not biased on any one company, i tend to seem partial to GM here and there but only because ive grown up in a GM family, other than those few hiccups here and there im really neutral and like to give credit where credit is due, i definatly thought credit was due on the 2010 GT since they made (and no offense meant) an out-dated engine, out-dated 5-speed tranny, and out-dated rear end all come together and actually be competitive with Chevy's brand new Camaro, that in itself makes me go haha, seriously. But as for the GT500 i think its getting into power bands where the system needs to be tweaked from the GT, now im not saying IRS is the way to go over the normal rear, if they can tweak their current rear to hook up better than the IRS then more power to them, thats even MORE respect on top of what they already desirve. But as of right now i think they do need to tweak it or do something to up the anti on their rear cause i believe the Camaro has an advantage in its hook-ups.

[coolman]

Originally Posted by Vega

Like i said, its hard for some performance enthusiests to consider, but personally i believe it to be true that the IRS is a big advantage, ive seen the GT500 burn off the line one too many times for my taste. Now for the GT im all for the classic rear, i mean i love that they've perfected it SO much its amazing what they've done with it. Personally im not biased on any one company, i tend to seem partial to GM here and there but only because ive grown up in a GM family, other than those few hiccups here and there im really neutral and like to give credit where credit is due, i definatly thought credit was due on the 2010 GT since they made (and no offense meant) an out-dated engine, out-dated 5-speed tranny, and out-dated rear end all come together and actually be competitive with Chevy's brand new Camaro, that in itself makes me go haha, seriously. But as for the GT500 i think its getting into power bands where the system needs to be tweaked from the GT, now im not saying IRS is the way to go over the normal rear, if they can tweak their current rear to hook up better than the IRS then more power to them, thats even MORE respect on top of what they already desirve. But as of right now i think they do need to tweak it or do something to up the anti on their rear cause i believe the Camaro has an advantage in its hook-ups.

It's not the fact that it doesn't have IRS that is has a hard time hooking up.
It's 540HP with not enough rubber on the road plain and simple. These cars launch like a mother with the right tires. IRS is not good for drag racing. It's more for road racing and if you look at the tests the GT500 well out performs the camaro with IRS in that area also. I wish the camaro didn't have IRS. To me that is the weakest link in the chain other than transmissions which is a sore subject for me right now.

[Cobra_Commander]

Originally Posted by coolman

It's not the fact that it doesn't have IRS that is has a hard time hooking up.
It's 540HP with not enough rubber on the road plain and simple. These cars launch like a mother with the right tires. IRS is not good for drag racing. It's more for road racing and if you look at the tests the GT500 well out performs the camaro with IRS in that area also. I wish the camaro didn't have IRS. To me that is the weakest link in the chain other than transmissions which is a sore subject for me right now.

A 2011 GT500 w/ SVT Pack comes with Goodyear Eagle F1 tires same as the Vette, and I never have a problem with traction in Vettes! Actually I do on any day where the temp outside is less than 40 degrees! LOL

[Vega]

Originally Posted by coolman

It's not the fact that it doesn't have IRS that is has a hard time hooking up.
It's 540HP with not enough rubber on the road plain and simple. These cars launch like a mother with the right tires. IRS is not good for drag racing. It's more for road racing and if you look at the tests the GT500 well out performs the camaro with IRS in that area also. I wish the camaro didn't have IRS. To me that is the weakest link in the chain other than transmissions which is a sore subject for me right now.

Well its not actually worse for drag racing its just easier to break, but thats still a big deal none-the-less. I dont think its the difference in IRS vs. non-IRS thats the problem either i think the GT500 could very well make a better rear by just continuing development of their honed and perfected rear end design. As far as the tires go any car will run faster and hook up better on better tires so thats a gimme. And i dont see what the problem would be with the transmission unless you mean the auto tranny, but i stand behind the manual Tremec's 100% they're by far some of my favorites.

I think the major issue here is the age old tradition of Ford vs. Chevy, i try to stay as neutral as i can. But if you grew up in a certain family, are a fan of a certain brand, or even drive a certain brand of car you're gonna be partial to that brand, and the tradition will rage on regaurdless haha. Really with the GT500, it should be head and shoulders better than the SS because the SS is a trim level below the GT500. The only thing im saying is i think the GT500 should look into its rear end because i have noticed on a few occasions it does seem to be one of its weaknesses

[coolman]

Originally Posted by Vega

Well its not actually worse for drag racing its just easier to break, but thats still a big deal none-the-less. I dont think its the difference in IRS vs. non-IRS thats the problem either i think the GT500 could very well make a better rear by just continuing development of their honed and perfected rear end design. As far as the tires go any car will run faster and hook up better on better tires so thats a gimme. And i dont see what the problem would be with the transmission unless you mean the auto tranny, but i stand behind the manual Tremec's 100% they're by far some of my favorites.

I think the major issue here is the age old tradition of Ford vs. Chevy, i try to stay as neutral as i can. But if you grew up in a certain family, are a fan of a certain brand, or even drive a certain brand of car you're gonna be partial to that brand, and the tradition will rage on regaurdless haha. Really with the GT500, it should be head and shoulders better than the SS because the SS is a trim level below the GT500. The only thing im saying is i think the GT500 should look into its rear end because i have noticed on a few occasions it does seem to be one of its weaknesses

I was talking about the camaro when I said about weak rear ends and transmissions. That's been all over this board about those problems, and I'm in the middle of dealing with a broken transmission right now in my camaro. I also own a 2010 GT500 ,and it's transmission is a much heavier version of the one in the camaro and it shows. I haven't heard anything about the rear ends being weak in the GT500 as you suggested.

I know one thing when they do bring out the Z/28 they better put a much heavier transmission and rear under the car to handle the LSA motor. I really have no doubt that they will. But this will also come at a price.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by coolman

I was talking about the camaro when I said about weak rear ends and transmissions. That's been all over this board about those problems, and I'm in the middle of dealing with a broken transmission right now in my camaro. I also own a 2010 GT500 ,and it's transmission is a much heavier version of the one in the camaro and it shows. I haven't heard anything about the rear ends being weak in the GT500 as you suggested.

I know one thing when they do bring out the Z/28 they better put a much heavier transmission and rear under the car to handle the LSA motor. I really have no doubt that they will. But this will also come at a price.

Nooo no no no, you got those backwords haha, i meant the rear ends in the Camaro were weaker, like not worse performance-wise but easier to break under high horsepower situations ya know? I was saying the GT/GT500 rear ends were more durable. Also i meant id always been a big fan of the Camaro's Tremec transmissions, i havent heard a lot of problems out of them myself.

[coolman]

Originally Posted by Vega

Nooo no no no, you got those backwords haha, i meant the rear ends in the Camaro were weaker, like not worse performance-wise but easier to break under high horsepower situations ya know? I was saying the GT/GT500 rear ends were more durable. Also i meant id always been a big fan of the Camaro's Tremec transmissions, i havent heard a lot of problems out of them myself.

I get you. We were thinking the same thing about the wrong car. I have mine in getting a transmission replaced right now(camaro that is) and if you search the boards you'll find I'm by no means in the minority. This is the manual in the the SS I'm talking about.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by coolman

I get you. We were thinking the same thing about the wrong car. I have mine in getting a transmission replaced right now(camaro that is) and if you search the boards you'll find I'm by no means in the minority. This is the manual in the the SS I'm talking about.

Hm, maybe there's something i havent seen then? haha there's always the possibility i overlooked something =P

[coolman]

Originally Posted by Vega

Hm, maybe there's something i havent seen then? haha there's always the possibility i overlooked something =P

They had claimed that the problem was only in the earlier builds ,but mine is a later build. It's been two weeks and not fixed yet. That doesn't really upset me much because I don't use it much in the winter ,but if I break another one it's going down the road.

[Sleestack]

Originally Posted by Vega

Nooo no no no, you got those backwords haha, i meant the rear ends in the Camaro were weaker, like not worse performance-wise but easier to break under high horsepower situations ya know? I was saying the GT/GT500 rear ends were more durable. Also i meant id always been a big fan of the Camaro's Tremec transmissions, i havent heard a lot of problems out of them myself.

The TR-6060 in the camaro is the same model number as the high horsepower cars, but it is not identical. Likely an easy fix when GM designs the Z28, ,or even before that.

"Both the standard Corvette and the high-performance Z06 use the TR6060 designated as MM6, which is validated to 500 lb-ft of torque, while the TR6060 with the Z51 option features higher ratios and is designated as MZ6. It is validated to 430 lb-ft of torque. The ultra high performance ZR1 uses the TR6060 designated as the MH3, which is validated to 650 lb-ft of torque. The CTSv uses the MG9 version of the TR6060 validated to 560 lb-ft of torque. The Camaro uses the M10 gear set validated to 430 lb-ft of torque."

[Vega]

Originally Posted by coolman

They had claimed that the problem was only in the earlier builds ,but mine is a later build. It's been two weeks and not fixed yet. That doesn't really upset me much because I don't use it much in the winter ,but if I break another one it's going down the road.

Whats goin wrong with it?