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Old 09-25-2009, 08:41 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by rickerda View Post
For $33,450 Chevrolet gives a 6.2L 426 hp V8, $30,995 at the Ford dealer you get a 4.6L 315 hp V8 and Dodge has a 5.7L 370 hp V8 at $30,220. If you're buying a performance car and you want the more horsepower where is the best deal? Chevy is selling a larger engine with more horsepower for about the same price range. Doing some really simple math, with all other things being equal, the Chevy will cost about $78 per horse, Ford gets $98 and Dodge comes in around $82 for each horse. Again assuming we only care about horsepower the Camaro provides 111 more horse than the GT for an additional $2455 and 56 more horses than the R/T for $775.

On the other side of the coin, if you want to buy 400+ horsepower from Ford or Dodge, what will it cost you? Unless you can find a Mustang between the Mustang Premium GT and the Shelby GT500, you will need to come up with $47,175, for a Shelby with 5.4L 540 hp V8. Take you checkbook over to Dodge and a 2009 Challenger SRT8 with a 6.1L 425 hp V8 is going to set you back $40,220. The competition is not offering the same performance within the same price range. This is the reason why when automotive magazines like “Car and Drive” and “Motor Trend” do side-by-side comparisons the Camaro SS is the easy winner. The 2010 Camaro is offering much more performance for the money.

The 426 hp Camaro SS at $33,450 is a great deal and well under the price of the same level performance offered by either Ford or Dodge. The V6 Camaro is in a similar position, the Camaro LS Coupe at $22,680 with a 3.6L 304 hp V6, the Mustang V6 Coupe at $20,995 with a 4.0L 210 hp V6 and the Challenger SE at $22,220 with a 3.5L 250 hp V6. The other interesting item about the Camaros position in the market place is the fuel economy (MPG) which is almost identical to its rivals while providing more power. On paper looking at these numbers Chevrolet clearly hit this out of the ball park.

Getting back to the Z28, if you accept the concept that the Camaro SS is currently providing more performance and better fuel economy for your money, then it becomes pretty clear that there is a place in the market for a Z28. The Z28 would need around 500 ponies under the hood and a price in $40,000-45,000 range. This would keep the Camaro Z28 well under the Shelby price and provide more power then Challenger SRT8.

Chevrolet should maintain the approach of multiple model trim levels by offering the Z28 in two trim levels. The difference would be the same as between the 1LT to 2LT or the 1SS to 2SS. The only real question is would there be an RS type option package to add the body-color roof ditch molding.

* All prices and horsepower figures are from MSN Auto web site (http://autos.msn.com)
** Both “Car and Driver” and “Motor Trend” did cover stories comparing the Camaro SS, Mustang GT and Challenger R/T the cars were selected because they were in the same price range.
I believe your about $2K high.
Yes 2 trim levels is a must!
RS IS A MUST!
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Old 09-26-2009, 02:46 PM   #44
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We all thrive on anticipation and speculation, since it's a vital part of the overall enthusiast's passion, etc.; and this thread is specifically a "what do you think?" thread. But... Ultimately, our desires, opinions, and projections aren't the bulk part of the business model.

Z28 is not a "value" business model at GM; it's a "profit" and "niche image" scenario. Production will be tiny relative to even the "New GM" scale of production. Beyond initial engineering, Z28 will simply be a product that has to meet spreadsheet viability goals for the corporate bottom-line. That means per-unit profitability well beyond what the V6/SS "value Camaros" must sustain. Coulda, shoulda, woulda, oughta... All ultimately moot points, as entertaining and enlightening as they are.

Recent valid insider info indicates Z28 base price will be in the low-50s including gas guzzler. Much as we all would like to have one for $5k-$10k less, it "ain't happenin'". Considering the overall economic and environmental conditions and mindsets, I'm glad the Z28 will make it into production regardless of the final MSRP.

Bottom line: A 550+ SAE net hp Camaro is an unprecedented historical event, AND it's happening against all possible odds. I hope the enthusiast community doesn't levy price-based criticism at GM when Z28 costs "too much". Expect it: $50k-plus... And well worth every penny and more.
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Old 09-26-2009, 03:16 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
I believe your about $2K high.
Yes 2 trim levels is a must!
RS IS A MUST!
Camaro prices from the Chevy web site:
1SS $30,745
2SS $33,745


Prices from MSN:
1SS $30,745
2SS $33,450

What did I miss?
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Old 09-26-2009, 03:23 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by WYD OPN View Post
We all thrive on anticipation and speculation, since it's a vital part of the overall enthusiast's passion, etc.; and this thread is specifically a "what do you think?" thread. But... Ultimately, our desires, opinions, and projections aren't the bulk part of the business model.

Z28 is not a "value" business model at GM; it's a "profit" and "niche image" scenario. Production will be tiny relative to even the "New GM" scale of production. Beyond initial engineering, Z28 will simply be a product that has to meet spreadsheet viability goals for the corporate bottom-line. That means per-unit profitability well beyond what the V6/SS "value Camaros" must sustain. Coulda, shoulda, woulda, oughta... All ultimately moot points, as entertaining and enlightening as they are.

Recent valid insider info indicates Z28 base price will be in the low-50s including gas guzzler. Much as we all would like to have one for $5k-$10k less, it "ain't happenin'". Considering the overall economic and environmental conditions and mindsets, I'm glad the Z28 will make it into production regardless of the final MSRP.

Bottom line: A 550+ SAE net hp Camaro is an unprecedented historical event, AND it's happening against all possible odds. I hope the enthusiast community doesn't levy price-based criticism at GM when Z28 costs "too much". Expect it: $50k-plus... And well worth every penny and more.
I understand where your coming from, however GM as a whole is on the better value than the competition bandwagon (think Kia & Hyundai, it's worked well for them). They will offer more for less than the GT500.
They also thought the Camaro as a whole, and then the SS V8 would be niche, but look at the volume.
Make no mistake about it the Z/28 is all marketing!

All that being said i can't believe for a moment they would not offer 2 trim levels in the Z/28 as they offer in the V6 & SS. Pricing Low $40's to High $40's.


p.s. noticed you own a ZR1, based on performance comparisons that Vette could sell easily for another $20K - $30K, again VALUE is ruling at GM.
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Old 09-26-2009, 03:53 PM   #47
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$47000
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Old 09-26-2009, 03:58 PM   #48
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I hope Killers' wrong, but those look like "reasonable" numbers.
?

Killer hasn't posted here yet.
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Old 09-26-2009, 04:01 PM   #49
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We all know how great looking the Gen 5 is and the z-28 will probably be even greater looking. If you take an MSRP of $52,000 & add tax, that's another $4,500 for me at least plus i'm sure they will be getting over list too! No Camaro is worth that much to me! They have to be careful not to price themselves out of the market. How many could they sell with the price approaching $60,000?
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Old 09-26-2009, 05:23 PM   #50
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I understand where your coming from, however GM as a whole is on the better value than the competition bandwagon (think Kia & Hyundai, it's worked well for them). They will offer more for less than the GT500.
They also thought the Camaro as a whole, and then the SS V8 would be niche, but look at the volume.
Make no mistake about it the Z/28 is all marketing!
Look, IMHO anyone who thinks that the starting out MSRP will be anything less than $45k is a fool and that is being on the cheap side. I would agree with WYD OPN, I think the MSRP will be closer to $50k than it will be to $45k.

Offers more for less than a GT500? Depends on what you are looking at. The whole GT500 engine is forged, not getting that with a similiar priced Z28 are you? This means alot to some people and not so much to others. The GT500 engine is hand-made, not getting that for a similiar priced Z28 are you? Again this means something to others and nothing to some. All components on the GT500 are made to handle almost any mods/mass power, I guess we will just have to wait and see if the Z28 components are the same way. Point is there is alot more value in a GT500 than what you might think when you look at its price tag, so before you go saying Z28 will be more value for its money you need to realize fully what the GT500 has to offer cause IMHO the are going to be priced about identical to each other and they will both offer great things to their buyers.

It just all depends on the person(s) personal preference, what they value in a car, and what they want to do with that car.
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Old 09-26-2009, 06:51 PM   #51
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Look, IMHO anyone who thinks that the starting out MSRP will be anything less than $45k is a fool and that is being on the cheap side. I would agree with WYD OPN, I think the MSRP will be closer to $50k than it will be to $45k.

Offers more for less than a GT500? Depends on what you are looking at. The whole GT500 engine is forged, not getting that with a similiar priced Z28 are you? This means alot to some people and not so much to others. The GT500 engine is hand-made, not getting that for a similiar priced Z28 are you? Again this means something to others and nothing to some. All components on the GT500 are made to handle almost any mods/mass power, I guess we will just have to wait and see if the Z28 components are the same way. Point is there is alot more value in a GT500 than what you might think when you look at its price tag, so before you go saying Z28 will be more value for its money you need to realize fully what the GT500 has to offer cause IMHO the are going to be priced about identical to each other and they will both offer great things to their buyers.

It just all depends on the person(s) personal preference, what they value in a car, and what they want to do with that car.
Becareful calling anyone a "fool".
Without a lot of the Lux items it very may well be $43K - $45K.

I already said it and I will say it again!
In an off the showroom floor contest the Z/28 will be a better value.
It will perform better.
The forged components are nice, but I'll take the IRS any day.
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Old 09-26-2009, 06:57 PM   #52
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7K difference in engines, soooooooo, 46K
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Old 09-26-2009, 07:54 PM   #53
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Let me clarify briefly... I wasn't indicating GM's products didn't promote and represent value, I was simply specifying the business model's stand-alone priority structure. GM is not scouring the forums to deduce their pricing strategy based on opinions.

I was tactfully trying to pass on accurate inside info without "challenging" everyone's opposing speculation. Bottom line: I'm not guessing... Unless they've changed the entire pricing model since April/May, Z28's base price with gas guzzler will NOT be in the $40s.

For those who won't like or agree with the $50k+ pricing, I simply hope you'll realize it's a miracle we're even getting Z28 at ANY price and withhold pricing-based criticism. With the V6 and SS Camaro models, Chevrolet addressed the value equation for the bulk of the performance market. Z28 is still an incredible value at $50k+, even if it means some can't or won't spring for the premium.
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Old 09-27-2009, 08:47 AM   #54
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Becareful calling anyone a "fool".
Without a lot of the Lux items it very may well be $43K - $45K.

I already said it and I will say it again!
In an off the showroom floor contest the Z/28 will be a better value.
It will perform better.
The forged components are nice, but I'll take the IRS any day.
Is red font like the new "in" thing on this forum? I really like how you highlighted my not so main points in red! Looks nice.

I did not point your/anyones name out specifically when i said "fool". Maybe i should have said "naive" instead of "fool", sorry about that. Believe me there has been alot more harsh things said on this site than "fool". I don't need your warnings boy, save it for someone who cares.

Here is my justification for why the Z28 will have an MSRP of at least $45k and probably more than that. The Z28 will be more than just an engine u/g hence there will be more of a price difference than just $6-7k for the different engines. There will most likely be drive-train component u/g, wheel u/g, brake u/g, interior u/g, clutch u/g and who knows what else which will result in more than just a $6-7k price difference than an SS. Gotta look at the big picture, not just what's under the hood. If the Z28 MSRP is anything less than $45k I will buy one myself. I'm already considering about getting one whenever they come out even if it's got a $50k MSRP, it's going to be a sweet car for sure.
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Old 09-27-2009, 11:14 AM   #55
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Is red font like the new "in" thing on this forum? I really like how you highlighted my not so main points in red! Looks nice.

I did not point your/anyones name out specifically when i said "fool". Maybe i should have said "naive" instead of "fool", sorry about that. Believe me there has been alot more harsh things said on this site than "fool". I don't need your warnings boy, save it for someone who cares.

Here is my justification for why the Z28 will have an MSRP of at least $45k and probably more than that. The Z28 will be more than just an engine u/g hence there will be more of a price difference than just $6-7k for the different engines. There will most likely be drive-train component u/g, wheel u/g, brake u/g, interior u/g, clutch u/g and who knows what else which will result in more than just a $6-7k price difference than an SS. Gotta look at the big picture, not just what's under the hood. If the Z28 MSRP is anything less than $45k I will buy one myself. I'm already considering about getting one whenever they come out even if it's got a $50k MSRP, it's going to be a sweet car for sure.

Highlighting in red allows anyone reading to understand why a comment is being made on a previous post.

Apparently your not quite so young as you refer to someone derogatorily as boy. Well, I'm not so young either and I'm definately not your "boy".
If you didn't care why the reply? And, thanks for schooling me on the Z/28 being a package and not just an engine upgrade.

Back on topic; I'm looking for GM to continue with their "Value" push. Just look at the performance per dollar of a stripped SS/1 Vs. a stripped GT. (Don't get me wrong I like the Mustang and if I could afford it as you I would own both and even a Challenger to boot.) This encourages me to believe they would price it quite competitively. Add to that the probability of 2 levels of optioning (ie. SS/1 & SS/2) and I believe it could very possibly "start" below $45K.

In closing, I agree it will be sweet!
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Old 09-27-2009, 12:45 PM   #56
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I hope it stays that low... One thing on GM's mind could actually be the CTS-V... If you can get a Z28 for under 40, why pay 59 for a very similar package in the CTS-V?...
Well there is the fact that despite the grunt under the hood, The CTS-V is still a luxury sedan.
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