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Old 10-14-2018, 03:25 PM   #2479
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Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
I'm not saying there is a high ceiling. I'm just not sure why you think the way you do when the exact same thing can be said in Ford's case. Which I already mentioned. Regardless of mass production or what have you we still see an OHV engine making 485 HP which is the SRT8 or SRT or whatever they're calling it these days. The LT1 is at 455 while the 3rd Gen Coyote is at 460. Ok that difference isn't even worth mentioning. Especially since the Mustang got an update while the LT1 has remained unchanged since 2016. So what does that leave? The Bullitt. One could argue that the 480 HP number is all marketing. but that's an argument for a different day. It's a 25 HP difference. A more aggressive tune from GM could fix that. Or an updated IM which Ford seems to love doing. Or they could free up the exhaust which Ford also loves to do. The LT1 was developed soo long ago that any idiot could come up with a way to increase output especially since the factory caps these cars. Do you really think that 455 was the max output they could squeeze out of it? LOL!! So then there is the Voodoo which made a little more than the Z28. In each of these cases, Ford built a car AFTER the specific Camaro it was built to take on has been out for some time. So I don't see anything in your argument to support what you're saying. Especially when, pushrod engines have throughout history made more HP and TQ than their OHC counterparts.


What the hell do I look like, an engineer? Ask GM what they plan to do. I don't care especially since this is my last Muscle/Pony Car I'll ever buy. But like I said before...more compression, freer flowing IM and exhaust, adjust the tune, adjust the pulleys, yada yada...you'll see soon enough when the next Gen shows up. And then you can tell us all about how the OHV engines are maxed out all over again.
Per post #2465:

The OHV engine is nowhere even close to being maxed. GM has soo many options to choose from. Plus look at the fact that the most powerful engines in the fastest cars that are affordable by most people are pushrod. GM has the 755 hp LT5, Dodge has the 707 HP Hellcat, the 797 HP Redeye, and the 808-840 HP Demon. And GM isn't even near the max of where they can take compression on their NA engines nor are they using DFI like Ford is. I could see GM pushing the 6.2 to 500 or more HP. And they could push a 7.0 higher than that. Or drop a 454 small block. They have tons of options.”

The LT1’s intake (not manifold) is pretty near the limit.

There is a little in the intake manifold.

I could see a small push in compression, 12.0:1 max.

Cams, I don’t see anything there that can happen from a factory perspective.

VVT is doing what it can.

Tune, on premium gasoline, is pretty much as far as will be pushed factory, just to accommodate possible increased compression or a manifold change.

Exhaust manifolds will never become headers, nor do I think there will be any change from what it is (hey, the Camaro GT4 car uses the factory manifolds).

Cylinders heads, maybe a little there.

Increased displacement? Nope. Emissions and fuel economy.

More RPM? Nope. Decreased efficiency and fuel economy. Potentially reduced durability in relation to cost.

Water injection? Probably not.

All stuff that’s been spoken about already.

So, where does that leave us? Around the 480-490 fHP area. Maybe 500, but that’s probably it. Let’s just say, about 30 fHP potential.

A DOHC has more flexibility and capability in RPM, VVT, cams and compression for a given displacement.
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Old 10-14-2018, 03:46 PM   #2480
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Originally Posted by Mountain View Post
The LT1’s intake (not manifold) is pretty near the limit.

There is a little in the intake manifold.

I could see a small push in compression, 12.0:1 max.

Cams, I don’t see anything there that can happen from a factory perspective.

VVT is doing what it can.

Tune, on premium gasoline, is pretty much as far as will be pushed factory, just to accommodate possible increased compression or a manifold change.

Exhaust manifolds will never become headers, nor do I think there will be any change from what it is (hey, the Camaro GT4 car uses the factory manifolds).

Cylinders heads, maybe a little there.

Increased displacement? Nope. Emissions and fuel economy.

More RPM? Nope. Decreased efficiency and fuel economy. Potentially reduced durability in relation to cost.

Water injection? Probably not.

All stuff that’s been spoken about already.

So, where does that leave us? Around the 480-490 fHP area. Maybe 500, but that’s probably it. Let’s just say, about 30 fHP potential.

A DOHC has more flexibility and capability in RPM, VVT, cams and compression for a given displacement.
It sounds like you’re a power train engineer so I’ll accept your accretions. Regardless, 500 HP is a 10% bump from the current 455 HP and it would come with a torque curve that a DOHC could only dream of in a NA configuration. yes, please
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Old 10-15-2018, 04:35 AM   #2481
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Originally Posted by Mountain View Post
Per post #2465:

The OHV engine is nowhere even close to being maxed. GM has soo many options to choose from. Plus look at the fact that the most powerful engines in the fastest cars that are affordable by most people are pushrod. GM has the 755 hp LT5, Dodge has the 707 HP Hellcat, the 797 HP Redeye, and the 808-840 HP Demon. And GM isn't even near the max of where they can take compression on their NA engines nor are they using DFI like Ford is. I could see GM pushing the 6.2 to 500 or more HP. And they could push a 7.0 higher than that. Or drop a 454 small block. They have tons of options.”

The LT1’s intake (not manifold) is pretty near the limit.

There is a little in the intake manifold.

I could see a small push in compression, 12.0:1 max.

Cams, I don’t see anything there that can happen from a factory perspective.

VVT is doing what it can.

Tune, on premium gasoline, is pretty much as far as will be pushed factory, just to accommodate possible increased compression or a manifold change.

Exhaust manifolds will never become headers, nor do I think there will be any change from what it is (hey, the Camaro GT4 car uses the factory manifolds).

Cylinders heads, maybe a little there.

Increased displacement? Nope. Emissions and fuel economy.

More RPM? Nope. Decreased efficiency and fuel economy. Potentially reduced durability in relation to cost.

Water injection? Probably not.

All stuff that’s been spoken about already.

So, where does that leave us? Around the 480-490 fHP area. Maybe 500, but that’s probably it. Let’s just say, about 30 fHP potential.

A DOHC has more flexibility and capability in RPM, VVT, cams and compression for a given displacement.
So I'll ask again, what indicates to you that the Coyote has any more room for increased HP than the LT1? Everything you said about the LT1 can be said about the Coyote. How much further do you think Ford can push 5 liters reliably, safely, and without affecting emissions? What technology is left for Ford to exploit that will give them more power. I mean, since you're making it sound like the 5 liter DOHC has unlimited potential while the LT1 is at it's max output. That extra 5 or 10 HP in the Coyote must really mean they're just worlds ahead. So since you're the engineering expert here, tell us what Ford is going to do and just how bad GM is struggling to keep up.
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Old 10-15-2018, 07:40 AM   #2482
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It sounds like you’re a power train engineer so I’ll accept your accretions. Regardless, 500 HP is a 10% bump from the current 455 HP and it would come with a torque curve that a DOHC could only dream of in a NA configuration. yes, please
Yes how is that torque curve advantage working out as the A10 18 GT in reviews is clearly faster in 0-60, 1/4, and top end despite being heavier.
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Old 10-15-2018, 08:12 AM   #2483
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Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
So I'll ask again, what indicates to you that the Coyote has any more room for increased HP than the LT1? Everything you said about the LT1 can be said about the Coyote. How much further do you think Ford can push 5 liters reliably, safely, and without affecting emissions? What technology is left for Ford to exploit that will give them more power. I mean, since you're making it sound like the 5 liter DOHC has unlimited potential while the LT1 is at it's max output. That extra 5 or 10 HP in the Coyote must really mean they're just worlds ahead. So since you're the engineering expert here, tell us what Ford is going to do and just how bad GM is struggling to keep up.
Im talking DOHC. Not the Coyote. The Coyote has little more than the Bullitt 5.0L. The Coyote is limited in bore size. Intake, cam specs, VVT/tune and exhaust are about it for THAT engine. Compression is pretty much there. I can say that Ford tends to leave a lot on the table as far as tune (spark/AFR) but are probably getting close in the Bullitt.

Max LT1 6.2L NA vs max Coyote Gen3 5.0L NA (both OEM offerings), the Coyote likely has the slight edge, but are close.
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Old 10-15-2018, 09:28 AM   #2484
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Originally Posted by newmoon View Post
Yes how is that torque curve advantage working out as the A10 18 GT in reviews is clearly faster in 0-60, 1/4, and top end despite being heavier.
Clearly faster? I don't think so. Talk to the guys going to the track. It traps a tiny bit quicker and that's all it's got. Reality is, the LT1 will take it 0-60. Off the line, any honest GT owner will admit it's not as quick as they expected. That torque difference DOES play out on the street.

Quarter is a wash, and I've seen the Camaro come out on top more consistently. I know about Evan Smith and all the 11s the mag reviewers ran. It's just that maybe 1 out of 20 can actually achieve those times on street tires.
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Old 10-15-2018, 09:59 AM   #2485
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Clearly faster? I don't think so. Talk to the guys going to the track. It traps a tiny bit quicker and that's all it's got. Reality is, the LT1 will take it 0-60. Off the line, any honest GT owner will admit it's not as quick as they expected. That torque difference DOES play out on the street.

Quarter is a wash, and I've seen the Camaro come out on top more consistently. I know about Evan Smith and all the 11s the mag reviewers ran. It's just that maybe 1 out of 20 can actually achieve those times on street tires.
I am not talking about guys at the track where anything goes and hiding mods are common place. I am talking about instrumented independent reviews testing assured bone stock vehicles.
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Old 10-15-2018, 10:18 AM   #2486
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I am not talking about guys at the track where anything goes and hiding mods are common place. I am talking about instrumented independent reviews testing assured bone stock vehicles.
Instrumented tests can be just as shady. Choosing a faster prepped track and a time with better conditions for one car, but not the other can easily skew the results. Or spending all day with one car chasing a goal can favor one over the other.

If those mag times can't be gotten on the street, or owners have to jump through hoops, they are meaningless as far I'm concerned.

It's known the Coyote is gutless down low. Any GT owner that has driven an SS will notice the torque difference immediately.
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Old 10-15-2018, 10:51 AM   #2487
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Instrumented tests can be just as shady. Choosing a faster prepped track and a time with better conditions for one car, but not the other can easily skew the results. Or spending all day with one car chasing a goal can favor one over the other.

If those mag times can't be gotten on the street, or owners have to jump through hoops, they are meaningless as far I'm concerned.

It's known the Coyote is gutless down low. Any GT owner that has driven an SS will notice the torque difference immediately.
Ok I understand. Reviewed performance is skewed to favor the GT and the clear 3-tenths difference between the best reviewed SS times vs the best GT times there must have been cheating involved. LOL. Also any posted private owner times are to be accepted for the SS.
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Old 10-15-2018, 11:41 AM   #2488
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Ok I understand. Reviewed performance is skewed to favor the GT and the clear 3-tenths difference between the best reviewed SS times vs the best GT times there must have been cheating involved. LOL. Also any posted private owner times are to be accepted for the SS.

I compare private owner times for both cars.

Anyway, all the instrumented tests in the world can't change what happens out on the street. My 2007 MS3 was instrumented at 5.8 0 60, yet pretty much no one could actually achieve that time. Yet we all felt proud making that claim even when Grandma with her V6 Camry could take us at a light.
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Old 10-15-2018, 12:31 PM   #2489
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Ok I understand. Reviewed performance is skewed to favor the GT and the clear 3-tenths difference between the best reviewed SS times vs the best GT times there must have been cheating involved. LOL. Also any posted private owner times are to be accepted for the SS.
The difference between you and this 2015 M6G post is that the gen6 Camaro SS proved itself to be a half second quicker than the 15-17 GT.

The 18 GT* being 3-tenths quicker? Not so much.
Name:  586BD30A-8C27-45AC-B5D1-9B14420EB9E4.png
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* GT, A10, PP, Michelin PS, 3.55 in drag race mode
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Last edited by hotlap; 10-15-2018 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 10-15-2018, 01:08 PM   #2490
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The difference between you and this 2015 M6G post is that the gen6 Camaro SS proved itself to be a half second quicker than the 15-17 GT.

The 18 GT* being 3-tenths quicker? Not so much.
Attachment 960801
* GT, A10, PP, Michelin PS, 3.55 in drag race mode
2018 Mustang GT
MotorTrend - 12.1 118.8 mph.
HotRod - 11:86 119.05 mph.
Cars.com - 11.90s no mph given.

I'll be waiting for any review which shows the SS under 3-tenth of these times. The SS has had 3 full years to get this done.
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Old 10-15-2018, 01:34 PM   #2491
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Originally Posted by newmoon View Post
2018 Mustang GT
MotorTrend - 12.1 118.8 mph.
HotRod - 11:86 119.05 mph.
Cars.com - 11.90s no mph given.

I'll be waiting for any review which shows the SS under 3-tenth of these times. The SS has had 3 full years to get this done.
You're 2 years late. High elevens are old news on the SS. BTW, just saw a stock 11.9 (56 deg. 900' DA) in the Mustang forums. I rushed outside to see if the moon was blue, but I accept that with no questions, especially in those conditions. If accepted on to the fast list, it might be the first 11.9 on the list. But, It's not instrumented by a Mag reviewer, so it doesn't matter right?
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Old 10-15-2018, 01:37 PM   #2492
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Originally Posted by newmoon View Post
2018 Mustang GT
MotorTrend - 12.1 118.8 mph.
HotRod - 11:86 119.05 mph.
Cars.com - 11.90s no mph given.

I'll be waiting for any review which shows the SS under 3-tenth of these times. The SS has had 3 full years to get this done.
Kid right now your just an annoying magazine racer. Post your timeslip in a 2018 GT proving your point or quit speculating. Look the word reality up. That's something that can be proven......Right now.
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