Anyone used a ZL1 or 1LE for a hillclimb event?

[X25]

Originally Posted by Iron Oak

Living in the Northeast where the summers are typically fairly nice. Only a few days where its above 90 degrees or high humidity, Do you still think I would suffer from heat soak that bad? Also is there anything I could do to the valve train to help offset the lack of reliability with a cam and high rpm driving? I'm assuming the concern is valve float. Granted we're talking no more than probably 40 minute sessions max at a time. More often it will be 20-30 min sessions. HillClimbs are a one shot, so not really concerned with that aspect. I have often wondered about the centrifugal. I don't know how much room there is though.

People do quite a bit of upgrades for cam, and they swear by them. Perhaps it's just my luck, but anyone I know who upgraded their cams and did track days also ended up grenading their engines. I've seen the same pattern (not grenading, but failing) with the accusump installations, too. Theoretically, the OEM cam is still a cam, and replacing it with something mild and very well thought-out cam should pose no issue with a good bit of power gains. In practice, though, I'd not trust anyone for this 'custom cam grinding' job : )

There's not much you can do with the heat soak, especially if you will hit 650 whp. Remember, supercharger also draws quite a bit of power, so perhaps you're generating as much as 750 whp (some part of which is eaten up by supercharger). With the well known low efficiency of internal combustion engines, that engine has to maker gobs of heat, and considering some part of this heat needs to be captured INSIDE the intake manifold, there is only so much you can do.

[Iron Oak]

Originally Posted by X25

People do quite a bit of upgrades for cam, and they swear by them. Perhaps it's just my luck, but anyone I know who upgraded their cams and did track days also ended up grenading their engines. I've seen the same pattern (not grenading, but failing) with the accusump installations, too. Theoretically, the OEM cam is still a cam, and replacing it with something mild and very well thought-out cam should pose no issue with a good bit of power gains. In practice, though, I'd not trust anyone for this 'custom cam grinding' job : )

There's not much you can do with the heat soak, especially if you will hit 650 whp. Remember, supercharger also draws quite a bit of power, so perhaps you're generating as much as 750 whp (some part of which is eaten up by supercharger). With the well known low efficiency of internal combustion engines, that engine has to maker gobs of heat, and considering some part of this heat needs to be captured INSIDE the intake manifold, there is only so much you can do.

Well, I do really appreciate you and everyone else who has taken the time to respond to my numerous questions. I have a lot to think over. but luckily, a lot of time to do jus that before I pull the trigger.

[Todd in Vancouver]

OP I think you will find a number of threads in the ZL1'secrion and the 1LEmsection exactly on this. The 1LE guys swear the 300# makes all the difference and the Z owners will tell you by the time you pay for and do all the upgrades you could have just purchased a Z. Really depends on your level of performance you want and what you're willing to spend.

130R I hear and understand what you are saying but I just don't agree with you analysis. When you pay for the upgrades needed to track the 1LE like the OP is talikng about in Hill climb he will need more power and strength then the 1LE offers and as he already stated any mods will be farmed out so he is pating labour. I'm in the Auto business and $20K doesn't go far whennyou are paying aprx. $100/hr to have work done.

Good luck OP, just cruise the threads and you'll get all the info you need to make an informed decision. Make sure you postmsome pics of the new ride whichever way you go it'll be a nice drive in your new Camaro.

[Nor Cal ZL1]

Plenty of ZL1 owners have solved the heat soak You have to build for airflow and keep the boost at or below 12 psi.... boost is restriction. Boost is heat. If you speed up the supercharger for more capability you need to take the steps to get the numbers back down. The actual boost number means nothing more than how restricted the airflow is. The higher the number the more heat is introduced into the intake. The bigger issue lies in the oil temps

Fact is all Camaro's have high oil temp issues to be worked out at the track...... alll of them if you run in the heat.

Cams no problem if your prepared to have the valve springs checked every 25 000 miles . Most of the recent cam related failures have been from poor materials or improper installations. My cammed friends who have lost motors at the track have been tune related.

Op I think you will do well either way as there are pluses and minuses to both cars.

[Nor Cal ZL1]

Originally Posted by 130R

Now you're modifying the ZL1 and exceeding the $60K budget (or roughly the price of a new ZL1)



I hope I'm not coming across as dismissing the ZL1; that couldn't be farther from the truth. It is ABSOLUTELY a FANTASTIC turnkey car, that many people, like yourself, have sh!tloads of fun with.

There are several advantages to the ZL1: street cred, warranty, resale value, awesome ride for the level of performance (MagRide), etc.

You're absolutely right on how much things can cost. I'm fortunate that I can do all the work myself. In my case, a ZL1 wouldn't make any sense. I can build a 1LE for less than an additional $15K that would easily outperform a 'stock' ZL1 on a road course or autocross.

No-one should take offense. GM's hands are tied to some degree, even with the Z/28, by government regulations, safety standards, NVH & bean-counters. The simple truth is: there is something left on the table of EVERY Camaro model.

The OP asked for opinions; I gave him mine, and It's worth no more or less than yours. Only the OP can decide what's right, for him...

Just an example of how much more the drivetrain can take. That is the weight penalty you get for a bullet proof drivetrain. The drag guys are putting 1300-1500 at the wheels and it is still holding up. Its really stout.

[Orange Crush 1LE]

Originally Posted by Iron Oak

Here is a link to the hillclimbs I will mostly be going to. Located in Vermont and New Hampshire for the most part.

http://www.hillclimb.org/events/event_ascutney.html

The operating costs of a Z/28 are not ideal for me. Not to mention the upfront costs.

Primarily, I will be using this on a road course. Occasionally a autocross and I would like to do at least 2-3 hillclimbs a year.

I really like the 1LE, its lighter, less expensive and I can get decent power gains with simple bolt ons and a cam. Not to mention the outright excellent handling it exhibits.

BUT

Like stated, the ZL1, with its supercharger, would make up for any power loss I would lose on a hillclimb due to elevation changes and would still be fun on a road course. I just wonder how much weight I can shave from it. And who has the better turn in for corners?

I'm late to the party but thought I'd offer you my opinion. You said that you'll be using it quite a bit, primarily road courses with some autocross and hill climb events thrown in. What you need is a car that will LAST, unless you have deep pockets for upkeep. For that reason I would go with a Z/28, throw long tube headers and a tune on it, add a roll bar (not a cage if street-driven), racing seat and 6-point harness, and call it a day. If you want reliable performance and longevity and lowest total overall cost, the Z is the ticket. And I say this after building the exact 1LE you are contemplating. As X25 pointed out, I heads/cam engines often blow up sooner or later when on the road course, and I was one of the victims. Then I was forced to put in a big bucks forged stroker. Then I had to upgrade the clutch, the clutch slave, put a big brake kit on it, and a pricey custom dual oil cooler set up to keep it cool. I could almost have a brand new Viper for the money I put in it (which is probably the most reliable track car an will outperform just about anything, but out of your price range). Going forced induction for a frequently stressed track/hill climb car I would think would be even more expensive longterm. With the Z/28 however, it has been factory tested to the nth degree and is remarkable in it's performance and reliability. And it will last. Longtube headers and a tune will give you a nice bump in HP without a big hit in reliability, I think it's the sweet spot.

I also race a Mustang, and it has an anemic stock 4.6L motor. Why did I choose a class that requires a stock engine? So that the cost of repair is reasonable and the car lasts a lot longer between repairs. I am replacing that motor now as well, thank goodness it's only a $4500 crate motor from Ford. Track cars put tremendous stresses on their engines and everything else. If you are on a budget but plan on tracking often, Z/28.

[jamestown]

I cringe at the thought of having to replace an ls7, crate motors are what around $20000?

No one is going to follow this advice, hell even I probably won't over the long term, but the stock ls3 makes great power at a fair price. Ever consider just running it as is? Unless you have the Mercedes f1 budget there is always going to be someone in a faster car than you, and bolting on more horsepower to get your track times lower says nothing for your actual improvements in driver skill. It's like how I own $2500 golf clubs but still shoot 110.

Aside from that I wouldn't get a zl1, not that it is bad, actually it is very fast. As some others have mentioned, for road course work you probably want to pick between the 1le and the z/28. Also I wouldn't consider aftermarket forced induction for track work either, I've gone down that road in the past and it is a money pit.

[Orange Crush 1LE]

Originally Posted by jamestown

I cringe at the thought of having to replace an ls7, crate motors are what around $20000?

No one is going to follow this advice, hell even I probably won't over the long term, but the stock ls3 makes great power at a fair price. Ever consider just running it as is? Unless you have the Mercedes f1 budget there is always going to be someone in a faster car than you, and bolting on more horsepower to get your track times lower says nothing for your actual improvements in driver skill. It's like how I own $2500 golf clubs but still shoot 110.

Aside from that I wouldn't get a zl1, not that it is bad, actually it is very fast. As some others have mentioned, for road course work you probably want to pick between the 1le and the z/28. Also I wouldn't consider aftermarket forced induction for track work either, I've gone down that road in the past and it is a money pit.

Agreed, but the OP is seeking some serious HP, not at the level of a stock LS3. My point is that a heads/cam LS3 would be less reliable and thus more expensive in the long term than a stock LS7, for an often-tracked car. The entire Z/28 drivetrain is set up and tested for high HP, not just the engine. There's a reason that the C6 Z06 is such a favorite at the road courses. Not perfect in reliability but pretty darned good. The Z/28 holds the same advantage.

[Iron Oak]

Originally Posted by Orange Crush 1LE

Agreed, but the OP is seeking some serious HP, not at the level of a stock LS3. My point is that a heads/cam LS3 would be less reliable and thus more expensive in the long term than a stock LS7, for an often-tracked car. The entire Z/28 drivetrain is set up and tested for high HP, not just the engine. There's a reason that the C6 Z06 is such a favorite at the road courses. Not perfect in reliability but pretty darned good. The Z/28 holds the same advantage.

Regardless of which car I decide to go with, the first thing I plan to do is drive it on the track in its stock form to get to know the car. Most likely some brake pad upgrades prior to that but I want to know and feel each change I make.

I will start with suspension, unless I went with the Z/28, which is highly unlikely unless I find one in the mid to low $50k. Even then the upkeep costs are high. The tires don't last long and are expensive. The brakes while awesome, I don't even want to think about the replacement costs. I can make due very well with some two piece steel disc and some good pads with proper ventilation.

And the power gains I am talking about are speculative at this point. They might be far less say closer to 500RWHP or less when I get a feel for the car.(with a 1LE) And this will be slowly built over time with bolt ons etc. or I just might leave the engine relatively stock and build an engine on the side for later use.

Another approach might be weight savings. See where I can cut weight affectively.

[Nor Cal ZL1]

The Ls7 in the Z is not bullet proof.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=415222
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=419077

[SPCBA]

If I could do it again from square one. I would do safety, brakes, weight, suspension. That order. But if I could do it again I would buy a junky Miata and make my own super Miata with sunflower daisy rims.

[X25]

Originally Posted by SPCBA

If I could do it again from square one. I would do safety, brakes, weight, suspension. That order. But if I could do it again I would buy a junky Miata and make my own super Miata with sunflower daisy rims.

I sold my '13 Corvette Z06 at the time and bought a Miata, but ended up buying a Camaro 1LE as well; you miss the V8 in the long run

My Miata build thread:
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=514329

[Nor Cal ZL1]

All of those points are valid, but I can't agree on the price. A decent motor built to last is going to take up most of that budget, and your going to want a builder who stands behind his work. Many dont when things go wrong. Those builders that do, have a premium.. OC1le has some experience there that got ugly for a bit when hus tune was off, and the builder blamed him. Another 10K down the drain for a new block and assy using what was salvageable.

The Z will leap frog the performance of your build as soon as you throw a couple of grand into pullies and such. Throw 15K at it and the 1LE will never catch it without turning into a track dedicated car with lots of cost for upkeep.

A maximum build of a 1Le will not match the max build of a ZL1, just as ZL1 maxed out will never match a maxed out Zo6 for different reasons.

Its all about what you want to start and end up and there is no wrong choice. For that matter there are much better cars to enter the world of motorsports than the Camaro.
If I were to choose an Autocross car, the ZL1 is not going to be it, it is just too big in general for most courses catering to smaller cars so I don't bother. My opinion is I want a great car that is not going to break no matter how I use it, I'll take the 300 pound disadvantage and work past it.

You don't have to talk down to me like I am some idiot. I have been involved in motorsports for about 30 years in building and set up aspects so I fully undersatnd many things about weight and how to manage it. I also know how costs run and it is always more. Take OC1LE's build it was at the threshold of choosing a different platform becomming more logical from a cost and headroom, and reliability standpoint. Choosing a jump off point is crucial. If the OP chooses the 1le that is great. I think it is a fantastic car.

BTW what were your last tire pyrometer readings?

[Orange Crush 1LE]

Good dialogue raised by all. You all have some truths in there but in the end, there are more than one path to success as NorCal ZL1 explained. I favor the lower weight of normally aspirated myself.

I still think the Z/28 is your best choice. My friend bought a brand new one for $57K when GM had a fire sale on them, so I'm sure you could find one lighly used for less than that. I do believe it would be good to go, with a warranty, right out of the box. For a serious track / hill climb car I would add the safety stuff (roll bar, seat, harness) now but wait until warranty expires to do the longtube headers and tune.

Regarding cost, I wouldn't worry about the tires. Replace them with whatever you want, when the time comes. You're going to be replacing them often if you want to be competitive and have a safe tire that is not heat-cycled to the point of being dangerously hard and low on grip.

Good point on the cost of carbon ceramic brakes, although I'm still trying to figure that one out myself. Ron Fellows Corvette School said that they didn't replace the ZR1's CCB rotors or pads for the entire 15,000 track miles that they kept them. They sell them at 15,000 miles, and remember these are hard-driven track miles. For steel brakes, you are replacing the pads, turning the rotors and sometimes replacing the rotors much more often. I'd like to see the longterm cost comparo between the two, although I suspect you are right that CCBs are more expensive. However, I had to put a 6-piston big brake kit on my Camaro as the 4-pistons were not up to the task for some extreme tracks. I ran slicks and big aero, so I was taxing the brakes more than most.