6.2L shame or not.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by 2010reddevil

Not only that, but the engine build required to run that type of power would be anything but streetable. It would be a straight up race engine build with race gas only. Forced induction is an entirely different animal all together. For once, just for comparisons sake, I'd love to see a 5.0L LSx build vs a Coyote. OEM parts only, since the OEM stuff is so great. I can guarantee that it would be a very one sided competition. Both platforms are good with what they bring to the table. Different strokes for different folks.

I'd love to know what LSX crank you would use to destroke down to 5L

[ChocoTaco369]

Originally Posted by 2010reddevil

The price would depend on development time and other issues. Also, what other similar engines could be made out of the same architecture for different uses. For reference, Mercedes' own 507bhp 6.2L only weighs 439lbs, just saying. GM has now pretty much used everything under the sun to keep the pushrod engine relevant. They use the same basic architecture with all of their truck engines as well, so development cost there is a lot cheaper. One engine in particular that could have benefited greatly from ohc is the new Hemi. The valve layout would have been ideal for a sohc design. Hell, Honda has even made 4v sohc engines, and they're among the most reliable and long lasting engines ever made. The size of the engine is irrelevant if the vehicle is designed around it as a package. As long as the mass is reasonable and can be contained down low for a good CG for handling. The LSx engines are great engines in their own right, nobody is denying that. But to say it's the best is a stretch.
And if they were to add 2 cylinders to the 3.6L, it would be a 4.8L V8 with roughly 445bhp going with the new LGX specs.

So, just out of curiosity, how many LS3's can I build for the cost of the single Mercedes motor?

[CamaroCracka]

Originally Posted by 2010reddevil

GM has now pretty much used everything under the sun to keep the pushrod engine relevant. They use the same basic architecture with all of their truck engines as well, so development cost there is a lot cheaper.

You seem to forget the LS engine replaced the Lotus built 4V engine for the Vettes because they could produce just as much power (actually more) with a simpler more cost effective design. The GM leadership pissing off the American engineering team by outsourcing the top power plant is what started the whole LS series. For once corporate leadership made the right decision and shitcanned the LT5 for the soon to be legendary LS.

Top fuel engines make more power per inch than anything on the planet and they have pushrods and two valves, and it's not like they don't invest huge dollars in ways to go faster. If a 4v would get it done, they would do it in a heartbeat.

Does DOCH work great in a 4-banger, why yes it does, but who the hell wants that. For those that do, I'm sure the Honda dealership is taking trades. Don't forget to order your fart can.

[2010reddevil]

You need to read the rules for a lot of the professional drag racing series. Dohc heads are prohibited, as well as turbochargers. Top fuel, no turbos and no dohc heads. Prostock, single cam in block design. And again, the fastest mod motor drag car is still faster than the fastest LSx powered drag car. The worst part is that every single fan boy forgets to realize how many oem parts are used in a mod motor build vs the LSx competition. Quit being so damn blind to the obvious, the LSx is good, very good in areas, but it's definitely not the be all-end all.

[2010reddevil]

Originally Posted by CamaroCracka

You seem to forget the LS engine replaced the Lotus built 4V engine for the Vettes because they could produce just as much power (actually more) with a simpler more cost effective design. The GM leadership pissing off the American engineering team by outsourcing the top power plant is what started the whole LS series. For once corporate leadership made the right decision and shitcanned the LT5 for the soon to be legendary LS.

Top fuel engines make more power per inch than anything on the planet and they have pushrods and two valves, and it's not like they don't invest huge dollars in ways to go faster. If a 4v would get it done, they would do it in a heartbeat.

Does DOCH work great in a 4-banger, why yes it does, but who the hell wants that. For those that do, I'm sure the Honda dealership is taking trades. Don't forget to order your fart can.

Yeah, I remember that engine. It was dropped for a bunch of reasons. Here's a very interesting article to read about the demise of the LT5 and also of a buildup of a prototype Gen III version. The death of the LT5

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369

Feel free to take on my argument, especially considering I've been frequently defending the GT350/R from the fanboy arguments around here.

I say the LS3 is a vastly superior motor to the Coyote because it produces more torque, the same horsepower, weighs less, is physically smaller, is cheaper to manufacture, cheaper to modify and, if the LS platform is any indicator of longevity, will likely be more reliable. There is very little on paper that the Coyote can compete with versus the LS3. The Coyote is a letdown to me. Yes, it's a fine motor, but not compared to the LS3, or especially the LT1.

We can get subjective to make arguments. Maybe you like the sound of one better than the other? Personally, I think the old 4.6L GT's sounded better. The 5th Gen Mustangs and Camaros were a weird generation because for the first time ever I thought the Camaro sounded better than the Mustang. My old LS1 Firebird wasn't the best sounding car, so I just made it ridiculously loud with a dumped cutout after the headers to compensate. It sounded AWESOME, just not good. I'm routinely impressed by how much better this Camaro sounds even though the LS3 is very similar to the LS1. Different harmonics of the chassis, different cam, more displacement, true duals versus a y-pipe...made all the difference on Earth.

You'd really have to build engines from each architecture up with the same displacement. There are things I like about each of these engines, and things that I don't. Problem for both for the enthusiast is how the need to meet emissions and fuel economy targets is muddying the water. A large displacement engine will be better suited to AFM techniques, since in 4-cylinder trim it won't be quite such a small 4. A smaller displacement engine loses less to friction.

There's a running discussion elsewhere that gets into turbo-V6 vs NA-V8 and what the future holds. One of the thoughts is that V8's will get somewhat smaller displacement-wise. I could get really interested in a true flat-plane crank V8 of about the same displacement as my 4.6L . . . maybe intentionally aiming for either 283 or 289 CID (a little over 4.6L or 4.7L, respectively). But start with a 98mm bore (more on this later) and let the stroke fall ~77mm, give/take.

I happen to like the X-pipe and FPC exhaust sounds, and the sound of a 4-cylinder sportbike being run up through the gears. Not that I don't like the choppiness of most crossplane crank v8's, but I'm a sports car and road course guy at heart (always have been). Had a '79 Malibu that I tinkered with almost the whole 30+ years I had it, and one of the more satisfying and fairly inexpensive mods was to fit a single oversize converter (4" inlet/4" outlet), weld up a couple of "Y's", and split it back into catback duals (technically illegal to replace one cat with two). Anyway, it ended up sounding very much like an "X", and I wouldn't have changed it afterward even if I could have and somebody else bought all the new pipe I'd need.

Originally Posted by stock block

next guy who talks shit about the LS3 gets . I've heard just about enough of this DOHC witch craft .

daddy said 4 cam's are the devil . daddy also said that them pony's are always so mad because they got all them valves and no cylinder radius

That's one of the things I'd have liked to see done differently. Oversquare engines inherently breathe better at high rpms (where HP lives and where DOHC holds the advantage), and there are other advantages. Bigger bore means less stroke for a given displacement, which in turn allows the block to be more compact and the crank lighter. And that's just off the top of my head.


Norm

[GossipSquirrelJelena]

Originally Posted by xc_SS/RS

go try and install headers and spark plugs on a Mustang GT with that V8 and I bet it might take more than a day.
.

The spark plugs are located on the top of the head. It literally takes 20 minutes to change all 8 plugs. Spark plug install is incredibly easy compared to the side mounted plugs in the LS! Installing headers took me the same amount of time to install on a 5.0 as it did on my L99.

[Stormcloak]

Originally Posted by GR8WHITE1

An s2000 makes 237hp with 2 liters stock, that's 118.5 per liter. Thats equivalent to 734hp in a 6.2 ls3. Now if you could run that power all motor would it last well over 200k like a honda? I doubt it, the dohc engine is a beast period. But I love my ls3 more than anything lol.

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Do you actually think that Honda is pushing 237hp at 200k?

[Magic]

Cams aren't swapped on the 5.0's because they aren't needed. Why spend the coin when the stock cams can take you over 850whp with boost?

[Jasper]

Originally Posted by GR8WHITE1

An s2000 makes 237hp with 2 liters stock, that's 118.5 per liter. Thats equivalent to 734hp in a 6.2 ls3. Now if you could run that power all motor would it last well over 200k like a honda? I doubt it, the dohc engine is a beast period. But I love my ls3 more than anything lol.

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Yeah at like 9000rpm it probably makes that power. I'd rather NOT drive around like that just to get some power. I already have to listen to all the other HONDA lawnmowers fly around here trying to get that last drop of their 100HP out of the engine. I like my power down low/mid where you normally drive.

J

[stock block]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

That's one of the things I'd have liked to see done differently. Oversquare engines inherently breathe better at high rpms (where HP lives and where DOHC holds the advantage), and there are other advantages. Bigger bore means less stroke for a given displacement, which in turn allows the block to be more compact and the crank lighter. And that's just off the top of my head.


Norm

Ya thats way I think about motors with more than 2 valves per cylinder too ,if your going to do it do it right! Makes scene they don't want to go all out and kill sales for the gt500 and gt350 car's tho

[GR8WHITE1]

Originally Posted by Jasper

Yeah at like 9000rpm it probably makes that power. I'd rather NOT drive around like that just to get some power. I already have to listen to all the other HONDA lawnmowers fly around here trying to get that last drop of their 100HP out of the engine. I like my power down low/mid where you normally drive.

J

My point is power at rpm will always beat torque on the bottom. Look at the new gt350 vs z28. Smaller displacement, higher rpm and less torque beat out higher torque, lower rpm and more displacement. For a daily like my 1LE I will take the torque but if you like to live on the track well then you want the higher revving car. Atleast that's my opinion. Apparently you have never driven an s2000. That car handles and is balanced beautifully. I am a car enthusiast and love all cars for what they are and the roll they fill. I am not a V8 nut swinging brand loyal nut hugger, and not implying you are either but alot of people are very closed minded to other options. I have owned alot of domestic and import cars and they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

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[GR8WHITE1]

Originally Posted by Stormcloak

Do you actually think that Honda is pushing 237hp at 200k?

No but not much less. The point is that it makes that much hp per liter reliably with no forced induction. And as much as you, myself or anyone else wants to admit they get it done.

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[stock block]

Originally Posted by 2010reddevil

Not only that, but the engine build required to run that type of power would be anything but streetable. It would be a straight up race engine build with race gas only. Forced induction is an entirely different animal all together. For once, just for comparisons sake, I'd love to see a 5.0L LSx build vs a Coyote. OEM parts only, since the OEM stuff is so great. I can guarantee that it would be a very one sided competition. Both platforms are good with what they bring to the table. Different strokes for different folks.

Wish I had the money to take you up on that call out , of course tho one of the parts of the rotating assembly would have to be non oem to get the ls7 block to 5L (should not matter tho because destrokeing the motor only hurts power ) after that a oem gm camshaft LS stage 3 and oem ls7 top end. me thinks the 505hp would probably jump to 650 -700... one sided indeed