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Old 03-31-2017, 09:22 PM   #29
Mudgett
 
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Originally Posted by Snoman View Post
Has nothing to do with 'my stance'. Most people dismiss it because they are incapable of grasping the concept of basic physics and/or they are completely clueless regarding the history and marketing of what the oval speaker represents. Others point to reputable manufactures selling a $x,xxx oval speaker citing it as validation, completely oblivious to the fact it is effectively a marketing scam to fill a niche void and simply make money.

The "oval speaker" was invented by the auto industry in the late '60s / early '70s as a means to capture more of the audio spectrum and lower octaves. Voice sounded 'ok' with a basic 2-way paper 4" but creating an oval 4x6 extended the lower band another octave or two. "Hi-Fidelity" and home audio was exploding during the 70s, the cassette deck was introduced to replace the 8 track and aftermarket solutions were people taking bookshelf speakers and tossing them into the rear deck. Little rectangular cube looking things with mounting feet, referred to as surface mounts.

Home audio speaker manufactures quickly realized that the acoustics of the auto had to contend with high noise levels and a remarkably uneven acoustic area. To address the problems of the car environment and to offer deeper tonal responses, manufactures began to experiment and fully develop the 6x9. It offered the best of both worlds by combining the partial features of a 6" round with a 9" woofer cone. Early models were still paper coaxial, though in the late 70s, Clarion's SK-103 ($175) offered the first true 6x9 woofer coupled with an independently mounted dome mid-range and dome tweeter.

Keep in mind that there was no such thing as a sub-woofer for the car, the power requirements had not been developed yet and any amplifiers that existed were too expensive to market. Everything was coming off the radio therefore, at the time, development of the 6x9 was the perfect solution. The 6x9 continued to dominate for nearly a decade, until technology and marketing began allowing dedicated amplifiers and alternators to be developed cheaper and cheaper. There was a crossover time in the mid-80s where you would see people with multiple 6x9 pairs in their vehicle as a cheap way to create bass.

In the late 80's, enter Rockford Fosgate with their infamous Punch45 and dedicated sub-woofers (and other high quality options) and true sound quality began to emerge. The frailties of the oval speaker began to show themselves when rising power levels literally destroyed them by ripping the voice coils away from the surround. Many shops were performing R&D to figure out why they couldn't hold up and discovered a few things;
  • The distance from the voice coil and the speaker edge was different
  • Under a strobe light, you can see the speaker rolling like a wave rolls through the water
  • At higher decibel levels these waves cause distortion as it is physically impossible for a distorted surface to replicate audio frequencies
The need for using an oval speaker became extinct over 20 years ago as we were able to replicate the complete 20hz-20khz bandwidth accurately using dedicated components. Fast forward a few decades.

Today, the 6x9 represents the same thing it did 40 years ago; to offer a cheap solution of some resemblance of bass using an infinite baffle design integrated with the trunk. Once an audiophile purchases a dedicated sub-woofer system, the need for a 6x9 is gone and they have a serious choice to make. Gut or disconnect the OEM 6x9 trash or replace the rears.

Most audiophiles are at a loss for disconnecting the rear speakers, this baseless theory is some made up concoction by the millennial consumer in efforts to save a few dollars on their system. When replacing the rears, money and objective become important. Does the audiophile want some basic rear fill and staying under 100wpc? What brand? Alpine/Kenwood/RF/Infinity? Grab some brand matched 6x9s and spend no more than $150 on a set of 6x9 rears and call it a day. Using more than 100wpc or into higher quality speakers like Focal, ID, Hertz? Unquestionably, you are purchasing 2 pairs of component 6.5" to ensure higher sound quality.

Most enthusiasts I know of will replace the 6x9 with a 6.5 at any price level, primarily due to voice matching and increased sound quality.
Wow! Tons of useful information! Thanks for the history lesson and great read. I am amature at best....have installed a few systems in older cars with my buddies and myself being happy with the end results, but deff not on par with pro installers. I reckon anyone who can install a head unit, 4 to 6 components, and a sub/amp would get ok results.

Idk if ud agree, but I believe bass is best provided by 10s in custom enclosures, matched to the cubes of space the subs are designed for. I was taught by a guy who did Db comps to build boxes that are not only ported, but baffled as well. I have had very good luck with this design, even for concert quality sound. I have long since moved away from the boom boom music and prefer quality of sound. Still not an audiophile by far tho.

If you see this snoman, and don't mind me picking your brain a little, I'd appreciate a DM. Thanks again for the info and thanks in advance if you have a little time to mssg me.
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Old 04-02-2017, 11:33 AM   #30
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..
If you see this snoman, and don't mind me picking your brain a little, I'd appreciate a DM. Thanks again for the info and thanks in advance if you have a little time to mssg me.
ty for the kind words. I'm open to dm's though with respect to my fellow audio gurus herein, I suggest starting a new thread (if unrelated to this one). There are many here whos advice and knowledge I respect and trust and would be better to have multiple responses to whatever your thoughts and needs might be.


To touch on your 'ported' statement regarding subs, you can either have sound quality or dB, but not both. SQ subs will always be in a sealed enclosure, it's simple physics and physically impossible to create a near flat tonal response curve from 10hz-60hz in any other manner. Understand that reality is different than paper and taking advice from a pro-circuit installer about what to install in an 'amateur vehicle' should be taken with a grain of salt. At the end of the day, you should listen to ported vs sealed enclosures to determine what you personally enjoy better.
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Old 04-02-2017, 12:10 PM   #31
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Who cares about a flat response at 10Hz to 60hz though? You can't hear 10Hz, and if you could, it would be the nasty sound of a flapping cone. That frequency range is all percussive and is why people want subs in the first place. To boost. If you want a flat tonal response, then you should be more concerned with 80Hz to around 125Hz or whatever frequency the 6.5's drop off at.
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Old 04-03-2017, 10:46 AM   #32
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I'll reiterate and expand, for 99.99% of the general public, you need to go listen to ported vs. sealed and be done with it....install whatever you like and enjoy your system. I have ported 15"s for my THX system that will nearly bring my neighbors pictures off his home walls, but a sealed system in my car. Is it right? No idea. Is it perfect? Absolutely no, but it's my money and ears and it sounds right for me.

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Who cares about a flat response at 10Hz to 60hz though? You can't hear 10Hz, and if you could, it would be the nasty sound of a flapping cone.
Hmm, yes and no actually. 10hz is a stretch to understand for most of the naive. The actual curve typically begins to drop off between 25-40hz, with a flat 10hz impossible to recreate, an F3 of 10hz is nearly impossible in this environment. There is no 'sound of a flapping cone' however as 10hz doesn't produce anything you can hear and there is no residual wave "noise" produced from the speaker unless you're working with trash products or installer. A woofer producing a 10hz note is usually a cone looking like it's about to explode off it's VC with the surrounding walls shaking like an earthquake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzzed View Post
That frequency range is all percussive and is why people want subs in the first place. To boost. If you want a flat tonal response, then you should be more concerned with 80Hz to around 125Hz or whatever frequency the 6.5's drop off at.
Flat tonal in the 3rd and 4th octave (near or at common crossover points) is a completely different discussion and has it's own problems. There are other SQ forums and FB groups more suited to that if like. This is generally why 10s or 8s are used, to bridge the gap for a more pure mid-bass that 6.5s struggle to produce at any real volume.
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Old 10-11-2018, 04:33 AM   #33
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On mine i'm running them off of a alipine head unit thats giving 50x4 peak and 15x4 nominal. I have polk 6.5's in the door like this https://soundrating.com/best-6x9-speakers/ infinity kappa 3.5's in the dash and the 6x9 kappa's in the rear. I used to install car stereos and I am certified so I can tell you that the setup I have is no where near as good as running an outboard amp. I'm waiting to put my amp in until I decide on a good subwoofer and I can get my buddy to come and measure the trunk so we can figure out how to make a box and hide everything without losing much if any trunk space. The way I have it setup does sound better than the bose system on my friends e-320 mercedes and the bose system is very good. My recommendation for now is to get a good headunit and basically do what I did with the speakers. The brand is up to you but I still definitely recommend polk or infinity The alpine head unit doesnt look anywhere near stock which pisses me off, so I am saving up to get an eclipse double din navigation system which will be custom molded into the factory slot, I will have to remove the cupholder but I dont really use it anyway. All of that will come when I finally get my amps and the sub. But enough about mine, I do get carried away. It does sound really good running off of a good aftermarket head unit. Like alpine, eclipse or maybe panasonic.
There are a lot of cool videos on YouTube, here’s one of them. Good luck

Last edited by Wkalis; 10-11-2018 at 06:07 AM.
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Old 10-15-2018, 06:19 PM   #34
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I'm thinking about swapping mines out they are blown. Do these speakers need special adapters? Or can I just rip them off the old ones?

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Old 10-16-2018, 09:36 PM   #35
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I'm thinking about swapping mines out they are blown. Do these speakers need special adapters? Or can I just rip them off the old ones?

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Requires a bracket, unless you destroy and modify old ones ( NOT ALL SPEAKERS FIT BTW )
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Old 10-16-2018, 10:13 PM   #36
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This one time, in high school, I had a set of Panasonic 6x9’s in my Catalina with a Tancredi amp / equalizer and an Audiovox amp for the front with some 5-1/4’s I got from JC Whitney. We used to play Kashmir in the high school parking lot at full volume after school. That was cool.

I’m sorry, what was the question again?
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Old 10-17-2018, 06:21 AM   #37
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Old 10-17-2018, 06:25 AM   #38
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I'm thinking about swapping mines out they are blown. Do these speakers need special adapters? Or can I just rip them off the old ones?

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6x9 adapters are nearly impossible to find or stupid expensive.


Easy enough to make your own.


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