Should they repair or replace motor?

[RollaMo]

Originally Posted by Rocky1974

I went to another dealer today and looked at the window stickers on all the Camaros. All the V6's listed Canada as the engine source. All the V8's listed United States as the engine source. All the automatics listed United States as the transmission source. All the V8 manuals listed Mexico as the transmission source. And all the V6 manuals listed Japan as the transmission source. I don't know for a fact that Tonawanda produces the V8's, but it's the closest engine plant on this side of the border and I do know for a fact that some, or most, or all of them are produced on this side of the border.

Yeah, my window sticker says the same thing.
But all the information I can find on the web lists lists St. Catherines as the engine production facility.
http://www.gm.ca/gm/english/corporat...any/operations

I did find a piece about Tonawanda gearing up to produce a new V8 for a not yet released vehicle. Perhaps the new LT1? Not sure.
http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/c...tonawanda.html

[Parabolica]

This morning on 'Chop, Cut, Rebuild' ('41 Willys Episode) they showed an LS3 being assembled at St Catharines...

It's hard to believe anything would leave the factory loose as all the bolts are torqued by computer controlled equipment. The operator just places the tool that has the socket(s) on the bolt/nut and the computer does the rest.

Even the installation of the pistons is somewhat automated. That is, the operator attaches the plastic protectors on the rod bolts and places the ring compressor over the piston, then inserts the piston into the cylinder, but instead of taping the piston in, a piece of computerized equipment knocks it in.

At the end of the day though, if there's a way to screw up, someone will find it, and computerized equipment can fail.

It was either a main bearing failure that led to the nut/nuts coming loose, or somehow the nuts were just never torqued correctly.

[Rocky1974]

Originally Posted by Parabolica

This morning on 'Chop, Cut, Rebuild' ('41 Willys Episode) they showed an LS3 being assembled at St Catharines...

I know. On the Camaro episode of Ultimate Factories, they say that both the V6's and V8's are assembled at St.Catherines, but when they actually go to the plant, all you see is V6's.
Since all that content information on the window sticker is by federal law, I would assume that GM would get in a lot of trouble, if it wasn't accurate and I doubt that these TV shows would get in nearly as much trouble for their inaccuracies, I tend to believe what's on the window stickers. Maybe their assembling V8's on both sides of the border, but if that's true, it seems strange that every one I look at says United States.

[Parabolica]

Originally Posted by Rocky1974

I know. On the Camaro episode of Ultimate Factories, they say that both the V6's and V8's are assembled at St.Catherines, but when they actually go to the plant, all you see is V6's.
Since all that content information on the window sticker is by federal law, I would assume that GM would get in a lot of trouble, if it wasn't accurate and I doubt that these TV shows would get in nearly as much trouble for their inaccuracies, I tend to believe what's on the window stickers. Maybe their assembling V8's on both sides of the border, but if that's true, it seems strange that every one I look at says United States.

I wasn't trying to get in the middle of this debate; it was more of a heads-up if anyone wanted to try and catch that episode and see an LS3 being assembled.

That said, the person they meet at the St Catherine's plant that gave them the tour explained the V6 was built at one side of the plant, and the V8's on the other, so for sure the LS3, or some LS3's anyway, are built at St Catherine's.

[RollaMo]

Originally Posted by Parabolica

That said, the person they meet at the St Catherine's plant that gave them the tour explained the V6 was built at one side of the plant, and the V8's on the other,
so for sure the LS3, or some LS3's anyway, are built at St Catherine's.

That much we know for sure.
What nobody can find is any documentation that any current V8 for the Camaro is built anywhere else.
I also mentioned that my window sticker lists the US as the engine source.

The link I posted above for GM Canada, then expand the Manufacturing Facilities section they list this facility as producing both Camaro engines.

So, still waiting for some kind of documentation that another facility produces these engines as well.

[vroomapunk]

I spun a rod bearing in my old '98 camaro, I decided to by a new engine anyway, but when I opened up the old one everything was still in amazing condition and it had 160k miles on it.


And I wouldnt trust ultimate factories, I watched a couple of those documentaries and they consistently cite the wrong models, years, and stats for the cars in the video, misstaking v6's for SS's and 2010s for 2012's, Looking at v6 engines saying 400 hp, etc

[Parabolica]

Well, the sticker says: "Country of Origin" for the engine and transmission. Apparently Country of Origin can have various legal meanings which are naturally open to interpretation:

"Non-preferential rules of origin are used to determine the country of origin for certain purposes. These purposes may be for quotas, anti-dumping, anti-circumvention, statistics or origin labeling.

The basis for the non-preferential rules originates from the Kyoto convention[1] which states that if a product is wholly obtained or produced completely within one country the product shall be deemed having origin in that country. For a product which has been produced in more than one country the product shall be determined to have origin in the country where the last substantial transformation took place.

To determine exactly what was the last substantial transformation, three general rules are applied:
Change of tariff classification (on any level, though 4-digit level is the most common)

Value added-rule (ad valorem)
Special processing rule, the minimum transformation is described. For instance, in the EU non-preferential rules of origin for T-shirts (HS6109), the origin is supposed to be in the country where the complete making-up was done.[2]

According to the non-preferential rules a product always has exactly one country of origin. However, the non-preferential rules may differ from country to country; the same product may have different origins depending on which country's scheme is applied. Usually it is the rules of the country into which a product is being imported that apply."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_origin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country...igin_principle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country_of_origin



It could be something as simple as where the main components are actually manufactured that gives the engine/transmission its Country of Origin...



Perhaps someone could PM fbodfather and have him clear this up...

[MMC]

http://gmpowertrain.com/Libraries/Pr...1012.sflb.ashx

Camaro LS3, L99, LFX Assembly site St. Catherines, Ontario

[BBS]

Originally Posted by Reineke

I would ask for an extended warranty for the motor its self... It around 117,000-150,000 miles. If it makes it that far, it should be fine with the repair.

This sounds like a good call.

[Rocky1974]

Originally Posted by Parabolica

Well, the sticker says: "Country of Origin" for the engine and transmission. Apparently Country of Origin can have various legal meanings which are naturally open to interpretation:

"Non-preferential rules of origin are used to determine the country of origin for certain purposes. These purposes may be for quotas, anti-dumping, anti-circumvention, statistics or origin labeling.

The basis for the non-preferential rules originates from the Kyoto convention[1] which states that if a product is wholly obtained or produced completely within one country the product shall be deemed having origin in that country. For a product which has been produced in more than one country the product shall be determined to have origin in the country where the last substantial transformation took place.

To determine exactly what was the last substantial transformation, three general rules are applied:
Change of tariff classification (on any level, though 4-digit level is the most common)

Value added-rule (ad valorem)
Special processing rule, the minimum transformation is described. For instance, in the EU non-preferential rules of origin for T-shirts (HS6109), the origin is supposed to be in the country where the complete making-up was done.[2]

According to the non-preferential rules a product always has exactly one country of origin. However, the non-preferential rules may differ from country to country; the same product may have different origins depending on which country's scheme is applied. Usually it is the rules of the country into which a product is being imported that apply."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_origin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country...igin_principle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country_of_origin



It could be something as simple as where the main components are actually manufactured that gives the engine/transmission its Country of Origin...



Perhaps someone could PM fbodfather and have him clear this up...

I did find this on GM's website.

Saginaw Metal Casting Operations (SMCO)

Location: 1629 N. Washington Avenue, Saginaw, Michigan. United States

Year Opened: 1919

Facility Size: 1.9 million square feet on 490 acres

Employee Information

Hourly: 582

Salaried: 92

Total: 674

Union Local: UAW Local 668, IAM Local 2839

Facility Details

General Motors Saginaw Metal Casting Operations has been a proud part of the Saginaw economy since 1919, providing jobs and community support for more than 92 years. It is located one mile west of I-75 (exit 151).

Products

• Aluminum engine blocks and cylinder heads
• 2.2L/2.4L L850 I4 blocks
• 5.3L/6.0L Gen IV V-8 blocks and heads
• 5.3L/6.2L Gen IV V-8 block pre-machine

2010 CY Production Total
2,017,103 castings

Product Applications

Lacrosse, HHR, Mailbu, Suburban, Yukon, Sierra, Yukon XL, Silverado, Tahoe, Avalanche, Camaro, Escalade, Yukon Denali, Sierra Denali, Silverado

Three technically advanced aluminum casting processes: green sand, lost foam and precision sand. SMCO is General Motors’ largest aluminum casting facility.


It looks like that they are casting and "pre-machining" the blocks and maybe the heads in Saginaw, Michigan. So maybe there's enough U.S. labor and materials in the engine that it qualifies as a U.S. product even though it's assembled in Canada. It still seems very disingenuous to me, if they are assembling the engines in Canada and listing the U.S as the source on the window stickers.