Z28 and the 5th Gen Refresh.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by thePill

I think Fbod said that 2015 redesign wasn't going to happen so I think a 50th Anniversary redesign would be fitting. I don't know if the Camaro has enough appeal to go unchanged all the way to 2017, I don't even think it would sustain sales up until 2015 without some new body work. The Z28 will no doubt help pull some attention but I believe it will be another limited edition. If the 5th Gen Camaro last 7 years that would see the maximum profits being made from this generation. If GM were to change it too soon, say 2015, then the 5th Gen may not cover the cost of R&D and IP and they would be in the hole again throughout the 6th Gens life too. 7 Years gives GM the time to pull out all the tricks like a Z28, 6 month interval special editions, a mid-gen refresh and some unique drivetrain additions like an LS9, LS7 and SSX LS3. The Mustang III will be seen camo'd around the spring/summer of 2012, details won't go public until Ford gets rid of the majority of 2013's (for sales and hold outs). That would be a perfect time for GM to shake things up with a refresh, a new Z28 and another, improved ZL1. There will need to be drastic measures taken by Team Camaro when the Mustang III starts hitting the rumor mill. I think that the Camaro should do its own thing (like the Challenger does now) after the 2014 Mustang comes out, If they chase Ford it could force them into a premature redesign and if sales are still good, there is no need to do that. Nobody is going to cross shop a 3400lbs, 440hp car to a 4000lbs, 430hp car...

He never said there won't be an all new Camaro in 2015. That may be how you interpreted it, but that is not what he said. In typical fashion, he said very little. And what he did actually say may not be what you think he was saying. By dismissing the 2015 Alpha rumour, you seem to think that means the next gen has been put to some way off time in the future. But it could also mean that it has been pulled ahead. Or that the platform won't be called Alpha. Or it has been pushed back a year. Or he could just be amused with the fact that so many people outside GM know it to be fact, when GM isn't positive on all the details themselves. Go back to that thread, and you'll see that he also dismissed someone who was saying that there will be a simple refresh (well, he called it a redesign but I'm sure he meant a mid-cycle refresh not a ground up redesign) and that the next gen wouldn't be until much later.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

He never said there won't be an all new Camaro in 2015. That may be how you interpreted it, but that is not what he said. In typical fashion, he said very little. And what he did actually say may not be what you think he was saying. By dismissing the 2015 Alpha rumour, you seem to think that means the next gen has been put to some way off time in the future. But it could also mean that it has been pulled ahead. Or that the platform won't be called Alpha. Or it has been pushed back a year. Or he could just be amused with the fact that so many people outside GM know it to be fact, when GM isn't positive on all the details themselves. Go back to that thread, and you'll see that he also dismissed someone who was saying that there will be a simple refresh (well, he called it a redesign but I'm sure he meant a mid-cycle refresh not a ground up redesign) and that the next gen wouldn't be until much later.

I'll go back and read it, I just remember Fbod LHAO at the guy suggested that the Alpha would be out in 2015. Now you have me second guessing the 5th Gen can sustain sales after the Mustang III comes out. They can just reduce production like the Challanger does and focus on profits per unit. There is nothing wrong with selling 3000-4000 Camaros out of the 4000 that are produced each month. I still think that a Z28 would do some damage in the media when the 50th Mustang comes to market. It will be difficult to go sales for sales with the new Mustang, especially since the Mustang will be taking over for the Falcon in Australia, and that is a 50,000-70,000 units extra a year.

GM has pulled the Camaro from the pony car market before, no shame in doing so while they benchmark the new Mustang. Grand Am is reaching huge spectator counts each month. I think the Z28 will do pretty well there, not saying that they will bump the Mustang and BMW, but they will definitely draw some attention. If I read the rules correctly, the Camaro could be DQ'd unless they meet the minimum production car sales requirement and that would let those Camaro teams seek employment elsewhere. Some straight up, factory support would really help...

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by thePill

You are within that 1% of dedicated Camaro enthusiast that have been heavily influenced by the current 5th Gen Camaro.
At this point, any gradual changes will receive heavy fire from the 1% but will be widely accepted and loved by the 99% that just love new automobiles.
I didn't know you've quantified this.... Thank you for telling me what I think.

Like I said, this will be the most difficult task GM and Team Camaro have ever had to carry out. There was an overwhelming portion of that 1% that found the ZL1's design to be flawed so I would hope that you would agree with me on this.
Again...glad you've quantified this...I try, generally, not to pull statistics out of my behind, it just doesn't look good. Worth thinking about...

I have a bone to pick with the ZL1's design because I know where they got it from and most people do not know that the fascia was borrowed. I want the Z28 to be original not like the ZL1's design was. Oh, do tell.......

I would like that the 5th Gen refresh was distinct enough to separate the 5th Gen from the 5.1 Gen but not drastic enough to lose their base but, I have a feeling thet there will be quite a few 1%ers that do not like version 5.1. Just be prepared to be supportive and display some acceptance when we start seeing the refresh...There's that "1% again"...I ought to change my signature, maybe....

Let me remind you that the reason the Camaro looks the way it does is because the Camaro people within GM were overwhelmingly touched by the rendering that Sangyup Lee produced....they turned it into something real that you can touch and spin on a stage.

When enthusiasts saw this car, it was the essence of Camaro...a 40-year old story told in 2006. They (we) demanded the production model be built, and not deviate. The engineers overcame enormous compromises to make a car that looks like this still perform the way we expect, and for that they should be applauded - but the bottom line is that the design has sold this car.

When regular people see this car, they do 180s...approach the owners, etc, etc...370zs, Altima coupes, Audi TTs and S#'s BMWs, and yes even Mustangs tend to blend in with the rest. The design of Camaro is SO good, it's even made its way into other Chevrolet's in the form of family design cues.

So if I appear apprehensive of an "anything goes" approach with regards to the Camaro's design, it's because it's very difficult to alter a design as close to perfection as this and come out the other end successful. But don't mistake me for a part of this imaginary 1% you keep referring to. I don't expect the Camaro to stay frozen in time, nor do I want it to. I simply don't pretend to know what it should look like...it's a task far above my head. If there's a design group that can do it, though, they're in the Renaissance Center.

In my very humble opinion, generally I'd like to see them nip/tuck the car in the same fashion that Camaro's and Corvettes (also think Aston Martins and Porches) have been redesigned for decades...evolutionary. And I'm sure they'll stay true to the simple elegance that defines the Chevrolet family design.

Originally Posted by thePill

I think Fbod said that 2015 redesign wasn't going to happen so I think a 50th Anniversary redesign would be fitting. I don't know if the Camaro has enough appeal to go unchanged all the way to 2017, I don't even think it would sustain sales up until 2015 without some new body work. The Z28 will no doubt help pull some attention but I believe it will be another limited edition. If the 5th Gen Camaro last 7 years that would see the maximum profits being made from this generation. If GM were to change it too soon, say 2015, then the 5th Gen may not cover the cost of R&D and IP and they would be in the hole again throughout the 6th Gens life too. 7 Years gives GM the time to pull out all the tricks like a Z28, 6 month interval special editions, a mid-gen refresh and some unique drivetrain additions like an LS9, LS7 and SSX LS3. The Mustang III will be seen camo'd around the spring/summer of 2012, details won't go public until Ford gets rid of the majority of 2013's (for sales and hold outs). That would be a perfect time for GM to shake things up with a refresh, a new Z28 and another, improved ZL1. There will need to be drastic measures taken by Team Camaro when the Mustang III starts hitting the rumor mill. I think that the Camaro should do its own thing (like the Challenger does now) after the 2014 Mustang comes out, If they chase Ford it could force them into a premature redesign and if sales are still good, there is no need to do that. Nobody is going to cross shop a 3400lbs, 440hp car to a 4000lbs, 430hp car...

You over-think things...and assume MUCH.

Firstly...if Fbodfather ever said anything directly related to a next-gen Camaro...it certainly wouldn't have been anything to interpret as an official statement. That's not to say that he can't - only that he doesn't do that...if I had to guess, somebody made some grandiose comment that warranted a few "......" from the holder of the 2x4.

Secondly...your commentary on profitability has been entertaining...but we don't know nearly enough to make such assertions. Only they know. And only they can make the decisions and choices you present yourself to be privvy to. Maybe they already recouped the R&D on the car. Or maybe they never will. Perhaps the 6th gen will have such a low cost of development thanks to the ATS/CTS that it won't matter, anyways. The bottom line is we don't know...and it's rather silly to use shaky assumptions as a foundation to draw further conclusions.

Finally...let's leave the Mustang chest-thumping out of the ZL1 and Z28 specific forums...(I'd say the site, but that's too much to wish for...). This is, however, the 'holy ground' of the site and I don't want to hear about non-existent mystical super-stangs in here. Whatever Ford chooses to do is their own business, and better suited to the other vehicles or off-topics section....or the versus section if it ever actually comes to pass....

[BoostedX2]

Pill, you can rant all you want about the specific specs of the camaro--I have driven both and I will tell you that the Camaro EPITOMIZES a muscle car and the way I like to drive, the mustang is a smaller car for small people and the styling just does not Get it--just my very humble opinion..

[thePill]

You over-think things...and assume MUCH.

Nobody ever told me that before, its the war harden mentality that has me spinning ever issue to get a look at it from all sides. It is how I approach all things and will be difficult for me to change...

However, back to the Z28 designs. I stand by my post and believe that one of these cars, along with a mid-gen refresh is in the works. Its always good to save the best for last...

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Mr T

Pill, you can rant all you want about the specific specs of the camaro--I have driven both and I will tell you that the Camaro EPITOMIZES a muscle car and the way I like to drive, the mustang is a smaller car for small people and the styling just does not Get it--just my very humble opinion..

I have driven both as well, I spent a whole day with a 2SS a few days ago for a review. I drive my GT almost everyday and I just cannot get over how close they got the 2010+ to the 1967-1969's. I loved the prototype pictures of the 2006 Camaro but when I went to look at one in 2009, it didn't look like the same car. I rented a V6 Camaro again in Hawaii in 2010 and drove it for 8 days out of the 18 I was there and you are correct by saying that the Mustang is a smaller car. I put money down shortly after the 5.0 announcement after I got back from Hawaii on the 2011 GT, I needed a car for competition....

I would like to see the refresh get rid of some of the extra metal on the outside like Dragoneye said. It's also a very hard thing to do but if Ford can do it, I think GM can.

I think that this Camaro really brings the front of the car into modern times, It's simple, functional and looks like a track athlete. It also takes the Camaro into another direction and would definitely make the older 5th Gens more exclusive. I think those headlights bring the 3rd Gen back a little...

[thePill]

I have a bone to pick with the ZL1's design because I know where they got it from and most people do not know that the fascia was borrowed. I want the Z28 to be original not like the ZL1's design was. Oh, do tell.......

What really turned me off about the ZL1 was that the lower fascia, the part that was suppose to really set the car aside from the SS, was borrowed from another GM product. The Fascia was taken from the 2008 Vauxhall VXR8 that carries the LS3. Once I seen that, I threw up. I hope the Z28 doesn't try to copy and paste parts from foreign cars, regardless if it is a performance model... people do live in other countries and are willing to bust them on this... Hurry up and look at this, I want to take this down.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Let me remind you that the reason the Camaro looks the way it does is because the Camaro people within GM were overwhelmingly touched by the rendering that Sangyup Lee produced....they turned it into something real that you can touch and spin on a stage

I agree that Mr. Lee's 2005 sketches were incredible, they were also very similar to Rob Jenson's 2003-2004 sketches of the S197 that were scrapped because they were too big in design. Ford obviously went with he classic drawings which brought about the smaller Mustang and went on to win the Miller Cup in 2005...

Lets compare... Ford eventually went with the black and whites at the bottom. Good history lesson though...

[thePill]

You see, the Mustang and Camaro are practically related.. Here some more from Robs 2004 batch, You will see the 50th Anniversary Mustang concept art in here, the black and whites half way down.... and the reason Ford went with the smaller styling, the current body lines of the 2010+ match the body lines of the 1964-1969 Mustang's. You are right about the new Mustang's looking smaller than they actually are (see bottom) That was no doubt very hard to do... I would like to see the 2013 Z28 match up with the 1969 Z28. That red Mustang would make a nice 2013 Z28, just change out the headlights, running pony of course and there ya go GM. The red one makes a nice nip/tucked 5th Gen...

[thePill]

My question is, when the 5th Gen is refreshed, will the majority of 5th Gen owners accept it? I would like to think so, some may regret buying the current car. Some are kicking themselves for not waiting until the 2012 just for the options available. I still think that the refresh will meet with some resistance here on Camaro5 but the majority of new car buyers will love the redesign more than the current car. That's what refreshes do, they attract attention to a tired model. The convertible is technically a refresh and it was about 50/50 accepted on here. This gives GM an opportunity to redesign the car to be functional and not just appealing to a limited number of consumers. If GM is starting to make some profit, why not keep the Camaro fresh each year with improvements? Even though the majority of sales are already out the window, limit production a bit (already in the works) and only build to the demand. The Challenger is laughed at every month but I guarantee they sell what they build and profits per are a couple thousand dollars more than the Mustang and Camaro. It's a strange strategy but it works, they are doing less work and running away with more profits due to the higher MSRP. By 2013, this strategy will be in place at Oshawa...

[Revo1]

Gen 5 only has TWO production years under its belt. It needs no refreshing as of yet. Not really diggin the headlamp covers. Functionality over form every time, but this car deserves to have both.

I response to your most recent query: There will (not hypothetically. I know gen 6 is on the way.) be no buyer's remorse for me. I bought this car loving every inch of it, just as it is. The interior has already been "refreshed" for 2012, and only reinforces how happy I am to have a 2010.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Revo1

Gen 5 only has TWO production years under its belt. It needs no refreshing as of yet. Not really diggin the headlamp covers. Functionality over form every time, but this car deserves to have both.

I response to your most recent query: There will (not hypothetically. I know gen 6 is on the way.) be no buyer's remorse for me. I bought this car loving every inch of it, just as it is. The interior has already been "refreshed" for 2012, and only reinforces how happy I am to have a 2010.

It's always awesome to have the original and in my opinion, the guys who bought the 2010 are the true 5th Gen pioneers. Every model year after the 2010 has gain weight but, do have more options. As of right now, the 4th Gen Camaro is only 2 years old but in 2013 the car will be at its mid-gen point. If you compare the initial S197 sales to the 5th Gen's, you will see that the 3rd year is usually where sales start to decline. In 2005, the Mustang was a HUGE head turner and was the most popular automobile according to the sales numbers. Ford was literally selling 14,000 Mustangs a month for 3 years then sales eventually dropped. There were two factors that contributed to the sales slump, one was the economic event and the second was, everyone that wanted a Mustang had bought one. For example, sales in 2007 were 134,626, sales in 2008 were 91,251. I think GM did the right thing and held off on the convertible as long as they did, even though the convertible tops were an issue, it helped push sales back up on the Camaro.

What were looking at is two more loooong years in the pony car market and the ZL1 will affect the market just as much as the Boss 302 did. Sales will hit the numbers hard and fast and after two months the numbers will go back to pre-ZL1 levels (more Boss 302's inc). The ZL1 is just too much of a beast to offer it at a reasonable MSRP especially with the gas guzzler tax. GM can safely sell 5500 and consumers will not have to pay the tax. Everybody thinks the GT500 evaded the gas guzzler tax, but it did NOT. The combined mpg were well below the 22.5 but, since Ford's production numbers were well below the amount that would initiate the tax (5500). The combination of the final mpg average and the total units sold, did not warrant the tax on the GT500. You can see this practiced with the CTS-V as well, the CTS-V's average mpg would actually tax the owner the maximum but since the total CTS-V's produced were only 9000 and some change, it set the CTS-V down an entire bracket, saving the consumer a lot of money. The ZL1 will not be sold in large numbers, the more they sell the more expensive it will be... and this is where the Z28 will succeed where the ZL1 did not. Vehicles like the Z28 can be sold in large quantities without penalties to the consumer or the manufacturer.

I agree that the Camaro needs both form and function, form sells way more than function because 99% of new car buyers can't tell you what the grille is for. I suspected that even the simplest of alterations to the 5th Gen would be met with frowns and I can almost guarantee that any future refresh will be the same. Trying to convince that 1% of new car buyers (Camaro enthusiast) when the changes go public that it is the best design GM had up their sleeves is going to be tough. I doubt that the original 5th Gen guys will regret their purchase, main reason being is that they will most likely hate the refresh... and that's ok... it just goes to show you how great the original was. The refresh needs to be functional, race ready, aggressive and be more aerodynamic drag coefficient. The 5th Gen needs to pull in some championships or at least some more podiums, this is where car enthusiast begin to respect the car and become more interested, when the Camaro begins to collect trophies. It sucks that nobody likes the headlights on the Camaro GT.R's, I think that a grille that was flush with the lights would really round out the front end. I will experiment some with a couple of the pics and see if I can get anything out of them...

[Z28 Autobot]

You are not going to get much in the way that can not be changed structuralwise on this car. If I am not mistaken this cars got a short lifespan on its platform before it goes by by.

So it might only get those cosmetic upgrades..The tail lights will be one thing to get it..maybe a new hood or two, reworked fenders and front maybe. But I really see GM doing only small stuff. They already offer the heritage grill on the car..soo..its going to be small things..interior and colors..

and the race covers..worked on 4th gens not on that car.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by thePill

What were looking at is two more loooong years in the pony car market and the ZL1 will affect the market just as much as the Boss 302 did. Sales will hit the numbers hard and fast and after two months the numbers will go back to pre-ZL1 levels (more Boss 302's inc). The ZL1 is just too much of a beast to offer it at a reasonable MSRP especially with the gas guzzler tax. GM can safely sell 5500 and consumers will not have to pay the tax. Everybody thinks the GT500 evaded the gas guzzler tax, but it did NOT. The combined mpg were well below the 22.5 but, since Ford's production numbers were well below the amount that would initiate the tax (5500). The combination of the final mpg average and the total units sold, did not warrant the tax on the GT500. You can see this practiced with the CTS-V as well, the CTS-V's average mpg would actually tax the owner the maximum but since the total CTS-V's produced were only 9000 and some change, it set the CTS-V down an entire bracket, saving the consumer a lot of money. The ZL1 will not be sold in large numbers, the more they sell the more expensive it will be... and this is where the Z28 will succeed where the ZL1 did not. Vehicles like the Z28 can be sold in large quantities without penalties to the consumer or the manufacturer.

I'm sorry, but that is just complete BS.

Gas guzzler tax isn't based on sales volume. Or do you honestly believe that Bentley sells over 5500 units each of the Arnage, Arnage RL, Azure, Brooklands, Continental Flying Spur, Continental GT, and Continental GTC? Because they all have a gas guzzler tax on them.

The gas guzzler tax uses a different calculation method than the window sticker. If it did use the commonly advertised number, the Camaro SS and Mustang GT would get it too, since they get less than 22.5 combined which is the minimum you have to get to avoid the GG tax in the US. The way its calculated, it is roughly equal to what the highway mileage is for the car (on the newest GT500, its highway mileage is 23 mpg)