Electric Vehicles

[jamala00]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

This topic has been beat to death. Along with topics like "Markups", "Where's my order", etc. Everything that needs to be said has neen said over and over and over and over again. Why anyone is still bringing it up is beyond me.

^^^^^^ Ya... That!^^^^^^^

[redcoats1976]

how about the new ford maverick?not sure about all the specs but it might be what you want...

[Chrome383Z]

Originally Posted by CHASLT1

I want a small S10 size reg cab EV truck with 400hp . I would trade my EV for one today if there was a small 2 door truck.

I want a S10 ICE for a work vehicle that gets 30mpg+ on the highway. The Colorado to me is too big. Might as well buy a Silverado.

[mariojas]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

I wish people would stop perpetuating the falsehood that all EVs are quick or fast. The high powered, very expensive ones are quick off the line and only some of those are actually quick by performance ICE standards from a roll (look at trap speed data for proof). Case in point: The Hummer EV - it's very quick off the line due to 1200 ft-lbs of torque and AWD, and thus, it does 0-60 in 3.0 sec. After that it trails off significantly and only traps 105 mph in the 1/4 mile (I think top speed is 106) despite having 1000 hp. Yes, it's a massive, heavy truck. But 105 mph isn't blowing the doors off any modern GT or SS from a roll, much less a ZL1 or GT500. Despite beating all of them from a dig.

The 835 hp Rivian R1T traps 110 mph. Quick, but again, that's about like a stock 5th gen SS from a roll.

EVs feel quick because they have instant torque that hits hard. Yes, I've ridden in a Model S Plaid. It's very quick everywhere (traps 151 mph in the 1/4 mile). But that's the exception not the rule. The Taycan Turbo S is also very quick from a roll (130 mph trap speed).

It's easy to make hp with electric motors because they don't have emissions standards to meet. Want more power? Add a motor and higher capacity battery.

The Hummer is essentially an LS1 F-body above 60 mph, but with 1200 ft-lbs of torque. Don't race one off the line though!

Edited to add: The Tesla Model 3 dual motor performance (top of the line Model 3) traps 114-115 mph. But it costs around $65k for entry. So, approximately SS rolling acceleration performance for ZL1 money. Also, look at the trap speeds of cheaper EVs (hint: they are much slower).

Sure. But how much, and how often do you drive over 100mph? I hope track only. I don't think Hummer EV was build for track use...

[fielderLS3]

I like cars that handle well, are engaging to drive, and age well. EVs are 0 for 3.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Number 3

First, anyone who thinks EVs prohibit them from modifying or recalibrating their cars hasn't built a personal computer.

You will have hardware choices for upgrades and anyone that can recalibrate an ICE will learn to do it for EVs.

How do you guys think Tesla continues to add performance and range? Over the air programming to existing cars. It's just software so you too will have those choices. And just like adding hp in an ICE with a "tune" that trades off durability for HP you will have those choices with an EV.

Hardware? Once the volumes are there, you will be able to upgrade on every level from components to modules.

It will be exactly the same, just the parts you are changing, upgrading are different. But i expect you will be able to have choices to upgrade performance and range.

From a performance car standpoint, it's simply NVH and charging time. Those are the last frontiers and the noise can be faked as it is in many cars today.

Agreed, but the the challenge is having access to the EV computer in order to make the changes. I had a Tesla tech come to the house for to replace the 12v battery in my Tesla Model 3, yes they have a 12v as well.

Anyway, these cars don't use your standard ODB2 port. They connect up with a laptop and run some special Toolbox software to run diagnostics and make changes. I told him thought my drivers window was not indexing correctly. He said hold on, plugged, clicked a few buttons and then all 4 windows ran through a repeated cycle. Test came back and said all were within spec.

I looked online and they let you have access to some of the service manuals and software for a hefty price.

[fielderLS3]

What happened to right to repair?

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

I wish people would stop perpetuating the falsehood that all EVs are quick or fast. The high powered, very expensive ones are quick off the line and only some of those are actually quick by performance ICE standards from a roll (look at trap speed data for proof). Case in point: The Hummer EV - it's very quick off the line due to 1200 ft-lbs of torque and AWD, and thus, it does 0-60 in 3.0 sec. After that it trails off significantly and only traps 105 mph in the 1/4 mile (I think top speed is 106) despite having 1000 hp. Yes, it's a massive, heavy truck. But 105 mph isn't blowing the doors off any modern GT or SS from a roll, much less a ZL1 or GT500. Despite beating all of them from a dig.

The 835 hp Rivian R1T traps 110 mph. Quick, but again, that's about like a stock 5th gen SS from a roll.

EVs feel quick because they have instant torque that hits hard. Yes, I've ridden in a Model S Plaid. It's very quick everywhere (traps 151 mph in the 1/4 mile). But that's the exception not the rule. The Taycan Turbo S is also very quick from a roll (130 mph trap speed).

It's easy to make hp with electric motors because they don't have emissions standards to meet. Want more power? Add a motor and higher capacity battery.

The Hummer is essentially an LS1 F-body above 60 mph, but with 1200 ft-lbs of torque. Don't race one off the line though!

Edited to add: The Tesla Model 3 dual motor performance (top of the line Model 3) traps 114-115 mph. But it costs around $65k for entry. So, approximately SS rolling acceleration performance for ZL1 money. Also, look at the trap speeds of cheaper EVs (hint: they are much slower).

Spot on. EVs tend to feel faster than they really are as a result of how they put down power. You get all of the torque immediately as opposed to dealing with lag from shifting and waiting for rpm to build. EV acceleration feels more like an on/off switch. That said, after the initial hit they tend not to pull as hard, especially as speed increases, with the exception of the Model S Plaid.

My Tesla Model 3 Performance was a little quicker to 60mph than my ZL1 (3.1 vs. 3.6) but only because of the Tesla ability to launch with dual motor AWD. That is the only metric where the Tesla was quicker. The ZL1 does everything else better. Even the 0-60mph runs are more fun in the ZL1 due to the extra drama of some wheel spin and the sounds of supercharger whine, V8 exhaust note and gear shifts. At highway speeds, the ZL1 will pull away with ease.

[Jaxcam02]

I'm actually really curious to see how long EVs are going to be a thing? The natural resources required for EV batteries are not as abundant as fossil fuels. Even now, dealers are unable to get replacement batteries for aging hybrid vehicles as all the batteries are associated to new vehicle production. It wouldnt surprise me to see a trend back towards gas vehicles in a decade or two as lithium discoveries waiver and the competition of many industries that are going to be competing for those materials used in battery production will increases. Unless engineers can figure out a way to recycle the batteries, this EV trend won't be sustainable for as long as ICE has been in existence. It'll be interesting to see play out over the next 40 years.
Actually surprised domestic manufacturers haven't made strides in turbo diesel power plants in sedans like the Europeans have.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by mariojas

Sure. But how much, and how often do you drive over 100mph? I hope track only. I don't think Hummer EV was build for track use...

The correlation is that the higher the trap speed, the harder the car pulls no matter the speed, except from a dig or when traction is an issue. E.g., a ZL1 will destroy a Model S P85D (for example) from a 40 roll, despite the P85D doing 0-60 slightly more quickly (because of the instant torque and AWD launch). The P85D might get the hit on a roll because of the instant torque, but the ZL1 will surpass it. To me, that's what matters - how hard a car actually pulls once its moving. I'd rather have a 11.0 @ 130 mph car than a 10.7 @ 125 mph car. The only reason the 11.0 car is "slower" in the 1/4 is because off the line traction. It's pulling harder than the 10.7 car everywhere except in the 60'.

And obviously, the Hummer EV wasn't built for track use. But everyone freaks out about it's 3.0 sec 0-60 time (similarly for other quick launching EVs), and more uneducated people will think it could beat a ZL1 at any speed because of that slightly quicker 0-60 time, despite it being slower than a 5th gen SS from a roll.

I see a lot of comments like "If you want to go fast get an EV". But that's simply not true in most cases beyond a dig launch (obviously with some exceptions like the Plaid and Taycan Turbo S I mentioned earlier).

Edit: As an example, one of Car and Driver's reviews of a Model 3 Performance listed under the plusses "Near supercar acceleration". Because in their test it did 0-60 in 3.1 seconds. However, it only trapped 115 mph in the 1/4 mile. That's not even close to supercar trap speeds.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by Number 3

First, anyone who thinks EVs prohibit them from modifying or recalibrating their cars hasn't built a personal computer.

You will have hardware choices for upgrades and anyone that can recalibrate an ICE will learn to do it for EVs.

How do you guys think Tesla continues to add performance and range? Over the air programming to existing cars. It's just software so you too will have those choices. And just like adding hp in an ICE with a "tune" that trades off durability for HP you will have those choices with an EV.

Hardware? Once the volumes are there, you will be able to upgrade on every level from components to modules.

It will be exactly the same, just the parts you are changing, upgrading are different. But i expect you will be able to have choices to upgrade performance and range.

From a performance car standpoint, it's simply NVH and charging time. Those are the last frontiers and the noise can be faked as it is in many cars today.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I tried telling them all this months ago...

What you guys don't seem to understand or too easily dismiss is that the software is also infinitely more capable in terms of enforcement, lockdown and centralized remote control, if only for "everyone's safety on the road" "to achieve zero fatalities".

Heck, even I can create an unbreakable platform that you'll need a currently nonexistent, billion dollar quantum computer to crack, so 3rd party modifications are easy to make technically impossible, and you bet they are/will be. For a glimpse at what is already here, just look at the T93 TCM that doesn't even have anything to do with EVs. The usual argument about not wanting to kill the aftermarket does not apply to EVs either, because there is no aftermarket.

Unless someone comes up with an open source car platform and somehow achieves full industry penetration in terms of adoption and somehow powers through all roadblocks to deploy these full right-to-repair, completely open vehicle architectures, non-OEM components will simply not be accepted, non-OEM software updates will be rejected, and that's the best case, because it's also trivial to disable features or the entire car when such modification is attempted (hello, Tesla superchargers).

In today's climate such a positive outcome (open source vehicles) is such a unicorn proposition I would not bet $1 on it, unfortunately. I hope, and will be more than happy to eat my words, that/if history proves me wrong.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

What you guys don't seem to understand or too easily dismiss is that the software is also infinitely more capable in terms of enforcement, lockdown and centralized remote control, if only for "everyone's safety on the road" "to achieve zero fatalities".

Heck, even I can create an unbreakable platform that you'll need a currently nonexistent, billion dollar quantum computer to crack, so 3rd party modifications are easy to make technically impossible, and you bet they are/will be. For a glimpse at what is already here, just look at the T93 TCM that doesn't even have anything to do with EVs. The usual argument about not wanting to kill the aftermarket does not apply to EVs either, because there is no aftermarket.

Unless someone comes up with an open source car platform and somehow achieves full industry penetration in terms of adoption and somehow powers through all roadblocks to deploy these full right-to-repair, completely open vehicle architectures, non-OEM components will simply not be accepted, non-OEM software updates will be rejected, and that's the best case, because it's also trivial to disable features or the entire car when such modification is attempted (hello, Tesla superchargers).

In today's climate such a positive outcome (open source vehicles) is such a unicorn proposition I would not bet $1 on it, unfortunately. I hope, and will be more than happy to eat my words, that/if history proves me wrong.

So you're saying that Tesla isn't going to want someone buying a $150,000 car and then modifying it and then blowing something expensive and returning it to the manufacturer to get it fixed for free? Shame on them.

You're just fancying up the wording for a warranty but putting a spin on it like the EVs are going about it the wrong way. Non-OEM software upgrades (tuning) now will void your warranty. You have to unlock the ECU/PCM now to tune a vehicle. You have to unlock the TCM to tune the trans. All this voids the warranty. People still haven't cracked the C8 ECU. You think the C8 Z06 is going to be modifiable? LOL. GM is going to lock those cars in and there is nobody who will be smart enough to crack it. What about BMW? If you bought a brand new i8 and something broke then are you gonna take a trip to AutoZone and buy a Dorman replacement part and install it yourself? LOL. No. You're going to take it to BMW or a qualified shop and have them do the work and they're either gonna use OEM BMW parts or a qualified replacement part.

So I'm not seeing what the difference is between now and in this future. Except maybe, instead of going to Vortech or TSP or some shop to modify your EV, you'll be able to go to your dealership and upgrade and keep your warranty intact and not blow something up unlike the many people who have had shoddy work and ended up with blown engines. Maybe it is time that the car manufacturers started figuring out ways to capitalize on this market. Maybe most of us would turn to Chevy if they offered a software upgrade that dramatically increased the output while maintaining a full warranty and not have to worry about emissions or failing inspection etc.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

So you're saying that Tesla isn't going to want someone buying a $150,000 car and then modifying it and then blowing something expensive and returning it to the manufacturer to get it fixed for free? Shame on them.

You're just fancying up the wording for a warranty but putting a spin on it like the EVs are going about it the wrong way. Non-OEM software upgrades (tuning) now will void your warranty. You have to unlock the ECU/PCM now to tune a vehicle. You have to unlock the TCM to tune the trans. All this voids the warranty. People still haven't cracked the C8 ECU. You think the C8 Z06 is going to be modifiable? LOL. GM is going to lock those cars in and there is nobody who will be smart enough to crack it. What about BMW? If you bought a brand new i8 and something broke then are you gonna take a trip to AutoZone and buy a Dorman replacement part and install it yourself? LOL. No. You're going to take it to BMW or a qualified shop and have them do the work and they're either gonna use OEM BMW parts or a qualified replacement part.

So I'm not seeing what the difference is between now and in this future. Except maybe, instead of going to Vortech or TSP or some shop to modify your EV, you'll be able to go to your dealership and upgrade and keep your warranty intact and not blow something up unlike the many people who have had shoddy work and ended up with blown engines. Maybe it is time that the car manufacturers started figuring out ways to capitalize on this market. Maybe most of us would turn to Chevy if they offered a software upgrade that dramatically increased the output while maintaining a full warranty and not have to worry about emissions or failing inspection etc.

You're right in that this process did not begin with EVs, it's been building for a while, but EVs with their much higher software content are a giant nail in the coffin of 3rd party modifications.

That's what I reacted to from Number 3's post, of course manufacturers themselves will have some limited offerings (and granted, somewhat ironically, that'll still be better than today when gm are offering few to no software upgrades for a Camaro that is only 1-2 years old).

[genxer]

Originally Posted by CHASLT1

I want a small S10 size reg cab EV truck with 400hp . I would trade my EV for one today if there was a small 2 door truck.

I love a new S10. With a maxed up c.i. new 4.3, r.c.s.b., and s.f.a. No Maverick copy. No turbo dohc. No EV. No b.s. trendy styling.