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Old 11-23-2013, 12:52 PM   #57
Rocky1974

 
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My car is tuned and I don't have a warranty and I don't need to blow an engine or transmission to prove it. My dealership is very mod friendly and my service manager has went out of his way to cover me in the past, even making warranty repairs long after the warranty had expired. But when I asked him about the Camaro, he told me that on these newer vehicles, if I let anyone touch the computer, my warranty is voided and there is nothing he can do about it. He said that if they don't follow the procedures in these documents, GM will not reimburse them for the cost of repairs. He also told me the same thing about my 2013 Chevy company van, when I wanted to let my tuner disabled it's, very annoying, 75mph speed limiter. So my take is, that if your really want to know, you should read GM's policy on these matters. SEE DOCUMENTS BELOW.


Engine Controls - Aftermarket Accessory Usage

Bulletin No.: 04-06-04-054B
Date: November 18, 2010
Subject: Info - Non-GM Parts and Accessories (Aftermarket)
Models:2011 and Prior GM Passenger Cars and Trucks
Supercede:This bulletin is being revised to add model years and update to the new U.S. Fixed Operation Manager (FOM) and Canada Warranty Manager (WM)names. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 04-06-04-054A (Section 06 - Engine/Propulsion System).

The recent rise and expansion of companies selling non-GM parts and accessories has made it necessary to issue this reminder to dealers regarding GM's
policy on the use and installation of these aftermarket components.

When a dealer is performing a repair under the New Vehicle Limited Warranty, they are required to use only genuine GM or GM-approved parts and
accessories. This applies to all warranty repairs, special policy repairs or any repairs paid for by GM. Parts and accessories advertised as being "the
same" as parts manufactured by GM, but not sold through GM, do not qualify for use in warranty repairs, special policy repairs or any repairs paid for by
GM.

During a warranty repair, if a GM original equipment part is not available through GM Customer Care and Aftersales (GM CC&A), ACDelco(R)
distributors, other GM dealers or approved sources, the dealer is to obtain comparable, non-GM parts and clearly indicate, in detail, on the repair order
the circumstances surrounding why non-GM parts were used. The dealer must give customers written notice, prior to the sale or service, that such parts
or accessories are not marketed or warranted by General Motors.

It should also be noted that dealers modifying new vehicles and installing equipment, parts and accessories obtained from sources not authorized by GM
are responsible for complying with the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act. Certain non-approved parts or assemblies, installed by the dealer
or its agent not authorized by GM, may result in a change to the vehicle's design characteristics and may affect the vehicle's ability to conform to federal
law. Dealers must fully understand that non-GM approved parts may not have been validated, tested or certified for use. This puts the dealer at risk for
potential liability in the event of a part or vehicle failure. If a GM part failure occurs as the result of the installation or use of a non-GM approved part,
the warranty will not be honored.

A good example of non-authorized modification of vehicles is the result of an ever increasing supply of aftermarket devices available to the customer,
which claim to increase the horsepower and torque of the Duramax(TM) Diesel Engines. These include the addition of, but are not limited to one or
more of the following modifications:
-
Propane injection
-
Nitrous oxide injection
-
Additional modules (black boxes) that connect to the vehicle wiring systems
-
Revised engine calibrations downloaded for the engine control module
-
Calibration modules which connect to the vehicle diagnostic connector
-
Modification to the engine turbocharger waste gate

Although the installation of these devices, or modification of vehicle components, can increase engine horsepower and torque, they may also negatively
affect the engine emissions, reliability and/or durability. In addition, other powertrain components, such as transmissions, universal joints, drive shafts,
and front/rear axle components, can be stressed beyond design safety limits by the installation of these devices.

General Motors does not support or endorse the use of devices or modifications that, when installed, increase the engine horsepower and torque. It is
because of these unknown stresses, and the potential to alter reliability, durability and emissions performance, that GM has adopted a policy that prevents
any UNAUTHORIZED dealer warranty claim submissions to any remaining warranty coverage, to the powertrain and driveline components whenever
the presence of a non-GM (aftermarket) calibration is confirmed - even if the non-GM control module calibration is subsequently removed. Refer to the
latest version of Bulletin 09-06-04-026 (V8 Gas Engines) or 06-06-01-007 (Duramax(TM) Diesel Engines) for more information on dealer requirements
for calibration verification.

These same policies apply as they relate to the use of non-GM accessories. Damage or failure from the use or installation of a non-GM accessory will not
be covered under warranty. Failure resulting from the alteration or modification of the vehicle, including the cutting, welding or disconnecting of the
vehicle's original equipment parts and components will void the warranty.

Additionally, dealers will NOT be reimbursed or compensated by GM in the event of any legal inquiry at either the local, state or federal level.


GM Service Information

Document ID: 2519676
#09-06-04-026C: Identifying Non-GM (Aftermarket) Engine and Transmission Calibrations for V8 Gas Engines Using Tech 2 or Global Diagnostic System (GDS) - (Aug 13, 2010)


Subject:Identifying Non-GM (Aftermarket) Engine and Transmission Calibrations for V8 Gas Engines Using Tech 2® or Global Diagnostic System (GDS)

Models:2006-2011 GM Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks (Excluding Saab 9-7X)
2006-2009 HUMMER H2
2006-2010 HUMMER H3
Equipped with V8 Gas Powered Engines Only

Attention:This bulletin applies to V8 gas powered engines ONLY. For Duramax™ diesel powered engines, refer to the latest version of Corporate Bulletin Number 08-06-04-006G.

This bulletin is being revised to add the 2011 model year. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 09-06-04-026A (Section 06 - Engine/Propulsion System).

General Motors is identifying an increasing number of engine, transmission and catalytic converter part failures that are the result of non-GM (aftermarket) engine and transmission control calibrations being used.

When alteration to the GM-released engine or transmission control calibrations occurs, it subjects powertrain and driveline components (engine , transmission, transfer case, driveshaft and rear axle) to stresses that were not tested by General Motors. It is because of these unknown stresses, and the potential to alter reliability, durability and emissions performance, that GM has adopted a policy that prevents any UNAUTHORIZED dealer warranty claim submissions to any remaining warranty coverage, to the powertrain and driveline components whenever the presence of a non-GM (aftermarket) calibration is confirmed - even if the non-GM control module calibration is subsequently removed.

Warranty coverage is based on the equipment and calibrations that were released on the vehicle at time of sale, or subsequently updated by GM. That’s because GM testing and validation matches the calibration to a host of criteria that is essential to assure reliability, durability and emissions performance over the life of the warranty coverage and beyond. Stresses resulting from calibrations different from those tested and released by GM can damage or weaken components, leading to poor performance and or shortened life.

Additionally, non-GM (aftermarket) issued engine control modifications often do not meet the same emissions performance standards as GM issued calibrations. Depending on state statutes, individuals who install engine control module calibrations that put the vehicle outside the parameters of emissions certification standards may be subject to fines and/or penalties.

This bulletin outlines a procedure to identify the presence of non-GM (aftermarket) calibrations. GM recommends performing this check whenever a hard part failure is seen on internal engine or transmission components, or before an engine assembly or transmission assembly is being replaced under warranty. It is also recommended that the engine calibration verification procedure be performed whenever diagnostics indicate that catalytic converter replacement is indicated.

The PQC has a process to confirm the ECM/PCM calibration is GM issued. The PQC will require a picture of the engine calibration verification screen, as outlined in this bulletin, before authorizing any V8 gas powered engine replacement.

If a non-GM calibration is found and verification has taken place through GM, the remaining powertrain and driveline warranty will be blocked and notated in GMVIS and the dealership will be notified. This block prevents any UNAUTHORIZED warranty claim submission.

Connect the Tech 2® to the vehicle. <Go to: Diagnostics and build the vehicle. Select: Powertrain. Select: Engine. *Select: Engine Control Module or PCM. *Select: Module ID Information or I/M Information System if the Module ID Information selection is not available. *If "I/M information System" was selected, it may be necessary to select "Vehicle Information" in order to display the calibration information.

⇒If the CVN information is displayed as "N/A", it will be necessary to contact the TCSC (1-800-828-XXXX English or 1-800-503-XXXX French) to obtain the CVN information.


Take a CLEAR digital picture of the Tech 2® Vehicle Information screen showing the engine Calibration IDs and Verification Numbers as shown above. Retain the printout information and the Tech 2® screen photograph with the repair order. Note: All pictures must be sent as a.jpg file.

E-mail a copy of the picture to. In the subject line of the e-mail include the phrase "V8 Cal" as well as the complete VIN and Dealer BAC. In the body of the e-mail, include the VIN, mileage, R.O. number and BAC. Include a brief description of the customer concern and cause of the concern. Note: The dealer will receive an e-mail reply after the calibrations have been validated. The e-mail reply will advise the dealer if the calibrations are OEM.

Allow two hours for the PQC to verify the calibrations and set up the case details.

⇒If the PQC determines that the calibrations ARE aftermarket calibrations, DO NOT contact GM Technical Assistance to discuss warranty concerns on the aftermarket calibrations. ALL questions and concerns about warranty should be directed to the dealers Fixed Operations Manager (FOM), (Warranty Manager (WM) in Canada).

You may call the PQC two hours after submitting the e-mail for authorization to replace the assembly. This will provide them time to receive, review and set up a case on the request. Please be prepared to provide all the usual documentation that is normally required when requesting an assembly authorization from the PQC.

Tech 2® Displaying All Zeroes for the Verification Numbers on the Calibration ID and Verification Number Screen


If the Tech 2® that you are using displays all zeroes for the Verification Numbers as shown, then perform the following steps:

Update the Tech 2® with the latest software from TIS2WEB. Turn OFF the ignition for 90 seconds. Connect the Tech 2® to the vehicle.
Turn ON the ignition, and build the vehicle. Observe the Tech 2® Calibration ID and Verification Number screen for proper operation.

⇒If the Tech 2® screen still does not display properly, then turn OFF the ignition for 90 seconds again. Turn ON the ignition and observe the same screen for proper operation.

Retrieving Calibrations From a Global A Vehicle

This information applies to the 2010 Camaro and is typical of the procedure that will be used on Global A vehicles.

Turn OFF the ignition. Connect the MDI to the Data Link Connector (DLC) of the vehicle. Note: Use the USB port to make the following MDI connection: Connect the MDI to a PC or laptop that has been downloaded with the GDS application from TIS2WEB. Note: At least one Diagnostic Package must be installed on the PC to perform diagnostics.

If GDS was just installed, select: Add New Diagnostic Package and then select: a Diagnostic Package to download.

Click: On the GDS icon on the PC. The Login Page will appear. Select: A User. The ID Screen will appear. Select: The serial number of the MDI being used. Select: Connect. Verify that the system status is ready by observing for a flashing PC light icon on the MDI. Select: Make, Model and Model Year, in order to build the vehicle. Click: Upload VIN, to allow the VIN to be reported to the PC. At: The Verification step, turn ON the ignition, with the engine OFF. Select: Next Action. The Home Page will appear. Select: Next. The Diagnostic Screen will appear. Note: Due to vehicle build, software and RPO variations, GDS may ask for additional information

Select: Engine ID, if prompted. Select: Module Diagnostics. Select: ECM. Select: ID Information. The Diagnostics page will appear.

Typical View of GDS Calibration History Screen

This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 900x546 and weights 105KB.



Note: GDS is capable of displaying up to 10 Calibration History events.

Select: Calibration History from the drop down menu in order to display the following items on the screen:

Calibration History Buffer

Number of Calibration History Events Stored

Calibration Part Number History

Calibration Verification Number History

Select: Screenshot. Name and save the file in an appropriate folder. Select : Print, and retain a copy of the screenshot with the repair order. Note: All pictures must be sent as a.jpg file.

E-mail a copy of the screenshot. In the subject line of the e-mail include the phrase "V8 Cal" as well as the complete VIN and Dealer BAC. In the body of the e-mail, include the VIN, mileage, R.O. number and BAC. Include a brief description of the customer concern and cause of the concern. Note: The dealer will receive an e-mail reply after the calibrations have been validated. The e-mail reply will advise the dealer if the calibrations are OEM.

Allow two hours for the PQC to verify the calibrations and set up the case details.

⇒If the PQC determines that the calibrations ARE aftermarket calibrations, DO NOT contact GM Technical Assistance to discuss warranty concerns on the aftermarket calibrations. ALL questions and concerns about warranty should be directed to the dealers Fixed Operations Manager (FOM), (Warranty Manager (WM) in Canada).

You may call the PQC two hours after submitting the e-mail for authorization to replace the assembly. This will provide them time to receive, review and set up a case on the request. Please be prepared to provide all the usual documentation that is normally required when requesting an assembly authorization from the PQC.
Warranty Information

• The Dealership Service Management must be involved in any situation that would justify the use of labor operation Z1111.

• Notify the Fixed Operations Manager (FOM) (Warranty Manager (WM) in Canada) of the situation.

• All claims will have to be routed to the FOM (WM in Canada) for approval.

• Please refer to Corporate Bulletin Number 09-00-89-016, Labor Operation Z1111 - Suspected Tampering or Vehicle Modifications for important information.

For vehicles repaired under warranty, use:

Labor Operation

Description

Labor Time

Z1111

Suspected Tampering or Vehicle Modifications

0.2 hr

GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information.

WE SUPPORT VOLUNTARY TECHNICIAN CERTIFICATION

© 2011 General Motors. All rights reserved.
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Last edited by Rocky1974; 11-24-2013 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 11-24-2013, 12:00 AM   #58
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Maybe this is a stupid question.

But couldn't you just buy a new ECM, and say your old one fried. Then place your warranty claim?

I assume an ECM is cheaper than say an LS3 engine/transmission
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Old 11-24-2013, 12:52 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSteck View Post
No, they don't (to the bolded part). Read your warranty terms.
Actually they do its called the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act:

http://www.sema.org/sema-enews/2011/...ermarket-parts

Quote:
Under the Magnuson-Moss Act, a dealer must prove, not just vocalize, that aftermarket equipment caused the need for repairs before it can deny warranty coverage. If the dealer cannot prove such a claim — or it proffers a questionable explanation — it is your legal right to demand compliance with the warranty. The Federal Trade Commission administers the Magnuson-Moss Act and monitors compliance with warranty law.
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:37 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBlock69RS View Post
Actually they do its called the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act:

http://www.sema.org/sema-enews/2011/...ermarket-parts
I don't think the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act is going to protect you much after you've re-flashed you PCM with a non-certified flash. That's called "tampering with an emission control device" and is against Federal and most state's laws. It's going to be rough going to try to convince GM that not replacing your engine is breaking the law, when their reason for not replacing it, is that you broke law in the first place.
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Last edited by Rocky1974; 11-24-2013 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 11-24-2013, 12:31 PM   #61
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On a side note. What is the cost of a new engine, tranny and rear end? Each.
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Old 11-30-2013, 12:20 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Arbgast View Post
On a side note. What is the cost of a new engine, tranny and rear end? Each.
I did a quick google and found L99 for approx 8k
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Old 11-30-2013, 12:41 PM   #63
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I go to a very mod friendly dealership, I went one time due to a CEL and just wanted to have it checked. I was nervous because my car sounded like rolling thunder pulling into the service department, this gets alot of stares and everyone knows that this Camaro isnt stock. When my car was checked out the technician that checked it out made sure to write "AFTERMARKET EXHAUST" really big in red letters on the ticket,but the service manager said "hell, we have a custom shop that installs aftermarket performance parts,so we arent worried about it"
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Old 11-30-2013, 11:57 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSteck View Post

No, they don't (to the bolded part). Read your warranty terms.
Yes they do.

A warranty may not be voided simply due to the presence of aftermarket parts or modifications. The entity offering the warranty is required to prove that the aftermarket part or modification is the cause of the failure in question.

Placing language to the contrary in any warranty does not change this legal requirement.

There is no requirement that a manufacturer has to offer a warranty but if a manufacturer chooses to offer a warranty they are required to adhere to the law.
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Old 12-01-2013, 11:01 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexmak View Post
I did a quick google and found L99 for approx 8k
It would probably cost $8k or more to pay a lawyer to fight GM if they denied your blown engine/tranny/rear due to ECU tuning.
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Old 12-01-2013, 12:00 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky1974 View Post
I don't think the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act is going to protect you much after you've re-flashed you PCM with a non-certified flash. That's called "tampering with an emission control device" and is against Federal and most state's laws. It's going to be rough going to try to convince GM that not replacing your engine is breaking the law, when their reason for not replacing it, is that you broke law in the first place.
Really depends on what you have done. Just about anything engine related is an emission control device these days. So by your definition just about any mod you add to the motor would be tampering so your argument really doesn't float.

It really doesn't matter what mod you do to your car the manufacturer is required to prove that the mods actually resulted in the failure. End of story. The FTC the government entity responsible for enforcing the law agrees with me as well:
http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles...ne-maintenance
Quote:
Will using 'aftermarket' or recycled parts void my warranty?
No. An 'aftermarket' part is a part made by a company other than the vehicle manufacturer or the original equipment manufacturer. A 'recycled' part is a part that was made for and installed in a new vehicle by the manufacturer or the original equipment manufacturer, and later removed from the vehicle and made available for resale or reuse. Simply using an aftermarket or recycled part does not void your warranty. The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act makes it illegal for companies to void your warranty or deny coverage under the warranty simply because you used an aftermarket or recycled part. Still, if it turns out that the aftermarket or recycled part was itself defective or wasn't installed correctly, and it causes damage to another part that is covered under the warranty, the manufacturer or dealer has the right to deny coverage for that part and charge you for any repairs. The FTC says the manufacturer or dealer must show that the aftermarket or recycled part caused the need for repairs before denying warranty coverage.
Even a quote from an GM service rep indicates as such
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevrolet Customer Svc


Modifications or tunes do not automatically void the powertrain warranty, but in many cases they will. If there is an issue or damage, and it is found to be the result of a modification or tune, then your powertrain warranty will be found void. These products may have detrimental effects on the performance and life of the engine, exhaust, emission system, transmission, and drivetrain. I hope this helps.

Reggie B.
Chevrolet Customer Care
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Old 12-01-2013, 12:14 PM   #67
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It would probably cost $8k or more to pay a lawyer to fight GM if they denied your blown engine/tranny/rear due to ECU tuning.
You are right it's hopeless and you should just give up

Not like there are other avenues available or anything. Ask to speak to a supervisor, take it to the manufacturer, BBB, bureau of automotive repair, small claims court etc.

Really good post by Apex Chase on this very topic post 41 is pertinent:
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267574

Here are some other good links to counter the FUD and feelings of hopelessness:

Will this mod void my warranty
http://thehorsepowerjunkies.com/gene...d-my-warranty/

Will this tune void my warranty
http://thehorsepowerjunkies.com/gene...d-my-warranty/
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Old 12-01-2013, 12:14 PM   #68
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While you may be right legally, it is not so straightforward in real life.
If GM denies to repair your blown engine/tranny/rear(aka your powertrain warranty) due to engine tuning as GM has stated in documents above, simply mentioning the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (15 U.S.C. 2302(C)) isn't going to do anything.

It is going to take a court case(aka $$$$$) on your expense to prove GM is illegally voiding the warranty. This will take some time of course and the car won't be fixed during the period(unless the owner shells out the money for the repair) and there is no guarantee you are going to win. You'll need expert witnessed to go against GM engineers and lawyers.

You would think that GM's lawyers have already thought this scenario out before the drafted those ECU documents someone else posted but who knows.

I'm not saying I agree with GM, and I wish someone with the money, time & lawyers would go through this so we can all tune and not worry ;-)

I don't think its just GM following this route either.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBlock69RS View Post
Really depends omens you have done. Just about anything engine related is an emission control device. So by your definition just about any mod you add those days to the motor would be tampering so your argument really doesn't float.

It really doesn't matter what mod you do to your car the manufacturer is required to prove that the mods actually resulted in the failure. End of story. The FTC the government entity responsible for enforcing the law agrees with me as well:
http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles...ne-maintenance
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Old 12-01-2013, 12:29 PM   #69
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BTW, I am specifically talking about a tune and GM denying your powertrain warranty...NOT a tune and GM denying your window motor not working.
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Old 12-01-2013, 12:53 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by RichP View Post
It is going to take a court case(aka $$$$$) on your expense to prove GM is illegally voiding the warranty. This will take some time of course and the car won't be fixed during the period(unless the owner shells out the money for the repair) and there is no guarantee you are going to win. You'll need expert witnessed to go against GM engineers and lawyers
Read my above post, there are other avenues other than full on lawyer vs lawyer.

If after finding a mod friendly dealer (they exist my dealer is tune friendly they just want it back to the stock tune before they troubleshoot), going to the manufacturer, up the supervisor chain, better business bureau and / or bureau of automotive repair, small claims court may be an option (limit is 10k in my state).

And to be clear I'm not taking about the cases where your mod was actually directly responsible for the failure, in that case you gotta pay to play. I'm tallking about the denials where just because you modded your vechicle they want to deny coverage or the mod you did do was in no way related to the failure ( cold air induction system and your window regulator broke).
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