Why does Ford give same engine for auto?

[wbt]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

I assume you meant lighter, right? And its closer to 250, but thats splitting hairs.

Anyway, isn't the gap between the GT and the SS about 2 or 3 tenths ... almost exactly the difference that can be attributed to the weight?

Yes. My bad.

The difference is due mainly to gearing, not weight. Put a 4.30 in the Camaro and see that difference erased.

GM gets a big F in 2011 by not offering different rear gear ratios.

[wbt]

Originally Posted by usmc8411

I would be daring enough to say that theres almost 0 difference in times between the mustang and camaro. There was big hype, but now pretty much no evidence to support it.

That is wrong. I believe I rebutted you in a different thread on the same topic:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=104670&page=3

[MikeSVX]

Basically put, the L99 in the auto avoids Gas Guzzler tax. In the LS3 stick, you have to deal with the Skip Shift to avoid the Gas Guzzler.

[mikeSS]

Originally Posted by usmc8411

LOL at this blanket statement. Anyways 1/2 mile...what is this Fast & Furious.

you take stock l99 camaro vs a stock ls3 camaro and you go 0-60 and they are about the same..

same cars this time 1/ 4 mile ls3 is a little faster

same cars you see a camaro on the high way going 50 you race 50 -120 the manual will win .... due you gearing and more HP...

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by wbt

Yes. My bad.

The difference is due mainly to gearing, not weight. Put a 4.30 in the Camaro and see that difference erased.

GM gets a big F in 2011 by not offering different rear gear ratios.

But you yourself pointed out that 200 lbs is good for 2 tenths.

There is a 200 lb difference.
There is a 2 tenth difference.
So your logical conclusion is that the difference is not due to weight?

I'm just using your arguments here

[wbt]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

But you yourself pointed out that 200 lbs is good for 2 tenths.

There is a 200 lb difference.
There is a 2 tenth difference.
So your logical conclusion is that the difference is not due to weight?

I'm just using your arguments here

No argument there buddy. .2 = ~200lbs. My personal observation and opinion of having owned and driven both cars is the rear gear ratio is more important to overcome than the weight diff. If GM offered optional gear ratios you would see difference erased.

The 5th gen does not have much to pull off to save weight. The Mustang without the Brembo brakes still provides additional capability for weight savings over stock. Outside of the stock exhaust for the SS, what else can be pulled? You have to start digging into the interior to make any significant impact.

This brings us back to the gearing diff/issue...

[Muscle Master]

I notice people don't complain about the MDS in the 5.7 Hemi's

Must be a better system Ima do some reading

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by wbt

Ford has been putting OHC motors in the Mustang since '96.
Mustang is 200lbs. heavier than the Camaro. Not a huge diff. Roughly .2 in the quarter. It is a better 1/4 mile car because of gearing and the SRA; not so much weight.

Of course, you are correct. I was trying to say that Ford was "even" using OHC engines in their trucks. While GM has stayed with the iconic Small Block. The only OHC V8 GM uses/used was the PV8 in the Cadillacs (XLR, STS, SRX). So the 5.0 is likely an extension of that knowledge and experience for Ford.

And just checked, the 5.0 Redlines at 7,000 RPM and makes it's peak power at 6,500 RPM while the Camaro is making peak power at 5,900. This is generally how an OHC engine makes more power, you can simply rev it higher.

Not even pretending to be knowledgable on drag racing, but physics is physics. And a 200 pound lighter car with a smaller cross sectional area is goiong to have an advantage over the heavier, larger car - all things being equal. Yes gearing will make a difference and so will the powertrains ability to make torque down low (one reason I suspect the Mustang has a 3.66 1st gear vs the Camaros 3.01 gearing). And tires.....obviously getting whatever you have under the hood hooked up is huge.

But the thread was about why the Mustang offered the same engine with the manual and auto. The answer is simply FE plain and simple. And a smaller diplacement engine will usually get better FE. They use a DOHC to make great power on a higher top end which gives them the performance as well. As pointed out, the Corvette uses the LS3 in both manual and auto (unless you get the GS which gets you a "hand built" LS3 from Wixom.

But a good thread non the less with good discussion. I always learn something in these.

[Sleestack]

Originally Posted by Muscle Master

I notice people don't complain about the MDS in the 5.7 Hemi's

Must be a better system Ima do some reading

They do complain about MDS and many despise it. No MDS for the SRT8 (yet). No MDS for me, give me my performance car full-on (not neutered in any way).

[chain777]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Ahhhhh, might as well weigh in.

First, kudos to FoMoCo. The new 5.0 is a pretty sweet engine. Very little to base any disrespect on.

First of all, OHC vs OHV. That is the big reason for both the FE and the HP of the 5.0. Lay the HP and torque curves over the top of one another and I'm sure you'll see the difference. HP is nothing more than the speed at which an engine can deliver torque. It's why diesels make great torque and low HP. On the flip side, it's why a little 4 cylinder can make nice HP but no torque. Larger (heavier) pistons and an OHV don't make for high revs. What is the red line of the 5.0 anyway? Anyone know? I thought it was 7,000 RPM or higher. And assuming the 5.0 does it, you can use VVT on both the intake and exhaust while the single cam on the OHV doesn't allow quite as much flexibility even with VVT for improved FE.

For a push rod engine, the LS3 is about as high tech as you can get.

And as for performance flexibility, do you want to put a cam in an LS3 or 4 in a 5.0? $$$$

Again, mad proper respect to FoMoCo for the effort. They deserve a lot of credit. But Ford has been putting OHC engines in trucks for some time now so putting that technology in the Mustang is only surprising that it took so long. They were dragging along with some old school powertrains.

And to the drag strip comments..............still boils down to the Mustang being a much smaller car.

So can I get better FE numbers with a smaller and lighter car with the same engine? Yes, absolutely. Mass is huge for City numbers and the smaller car is huge for the highway. And although a lot of threads have been devoted to it, the Camaro is based on a large sedan architecture. It's just simply a bigger, heavier car.

I'm really interested what GM's new generation V8's are going to bring to the table. From what I understand, they're sticking with an OHV design. So I think it's safe to say that the LS3 isn't as far technologically as push rod motors can go.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by chain777

I'm really interested what GM's new generation V8's are going to bring to the table. From what I understand, they're sticking with an OHV design. So I think it's safe to say that the LS3 isn't as far technologically as push rod motors can go.

Sorry should have been more clear. Didn't mean to say there wasn't more possible, just today you probably can't find one more advanced. Tomorrow is another story.

Get vs go, I guess.

[wbt]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Sorry should have been more clear. Didn't mean to say there wasn't more possible, just today you probably can't find one more advanced. Tomorrow is another story.

Get vs go, I guess.

I like the Hemi Dodge has coming as well. 6.4L, 470+HP. Pretty impressive for a N/A motor.

The 5.7 Hemi is pretty good too and getting a bump for 2011.

The LS series motors have been a great success for GM. The new 5.5 DI motor should also be a winner. Can't wait to see it.

[Rage]

Looks like the 50th anniversary Stang will be getting direct injection! I'll look for the article, but a cross section of their cylinder heads show a flat indent speculated to be the spot for a future injector! Hopefully the Gen V will jump on that technology!

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by chain777

I'm really interested what GM's new generation V8's are going to bring to the table. From what I understand, they're sticking with an OHV design. So I think it's safe to say that the LS3 isn't as far technologically as push rod motors can go.

I thought the Gen V engines were going to be DOHC. I could be wrong, but that's what I heard.