S197 GT500 vs 6th Gen SS/SS 1le

[ariZona28]

Don't the newer Coyotes have an oil consumption problem? And what about the Voodoo vibration issues? Ford might make an acceptable platform for short-term excitement but I think the LS/LT engine is better for the long haul as thier shortcomings are probably easier and cheaper to overcome. On a side note, it's pretty easy to find an early C6 Z that has already had the heads done. Not TOO crazy price wise either. 😉

[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by ariZona28

Don't the newer Coyotes have an oil consumption problem? And what about the Voodoo vibration issues? Ford might make an acceptable platform for short-term excitement but I think the LS/LT engine is better for the long haul as thier shortcomings are probably easier and cheaper to overcome. On a side note, it's pretty easy to find an early C6 Z that has already had the heads done. Not TOO crazy price wise either. 😉

Are you talking Gen IV? Cause the earlier gens don’t really have oil consumption issues. And yes I acknowledged way earlier about the Voodo before my thread turned into a Ford vs Chevy reliability thread. I disagree about the LT being cheaper than the coyote to fix. The coyote is pretty stout but on the rare occasion you do have a cam phaser issue I’d rather deal with that versus a lifter issue in the LTX engines. Oil pump gears aren’t a problem unless you’re bouncing off the limiter. GM cars though seem to have oil pump issues without bouncing off the limiter. Again just going by my personal experience.

I literally think about getting a used c6z everyday. Done a ton of research on it but unless I know the person personally, I don’t know if I want to buy someone’s heads cam car. Not to mention maintenance in general is higher on the vette ie having to drop the entire rear subframe just to do a clutch. Still one of my dream cars though.

[FarmerFran]

Shitton of them here...

https://morrisoncars.com/vehicles/Mustangs-for-sale

[FarmerFran]

Or this beauty for 90K

https://morrisoncars.com/334_V202308...Coupe-for-sale

[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

Or this beauty for 90K

https://morrisoncars.com/334_V202308...Coupe-for-sale

That dealer needs to put the crack pipe down.

[cdb95z28]

This is way too easy. Gen6 SS 1LE > than S197 GT500. By a large margin.

I think you recognize this, but for those who don't:

Chassis dynamics (grip, response, feel, feedback, structure, I could go on)
Braking
Refinement
NVH control where it counts
Mass (less)
Powertrain synergy
Road trip comfort
Engineering


If all you care about is brute power, well then yeah, maybe the GT500. I bet the SS 1LE punches above it's "power" weight vs that generation of GT500.

If you are considering letting the 1LE go based partly on your #1 criteria, you are in the wrong hobby. Overanalyzing the changing market will only suck the fun out it. I'm not really sure what your endgame here is. Don't let the market dictate your enjoyment. Sure, you could have had a Gen6 ZL1, regret never makes things better. The overall market is down, due to many forces. The Gen6 production is done. But demand, albeit even if it is small demand, is still going to be there on the better Gen6 variants for a while. SS 1LE prices are still good. You're not going to get what you paid for it, at least right now.

I thoroughly enjoy every drive in my SS 1LE.

Are you doing track days at Pitt Race?
A Gen6 SS 1LE will be superior at Pitt Race over the GT500. Easily. Not just with lap time but in road course driving excellence. It's easy to go faster in the Camaro than the Mustang.

The heart wants what the heart wants. It sounds like the visceral part of brute power has you looking bigger. Good luck! Many walk away from the Gen6 and return after realizing how good they are. That rarely being a sound financial decision.

[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by cdb95z28

This is way too easy. Gen6 SS 1LE > than S197 GT500. By a large margin.

I think you recognize this, but for those who don't:

Chassis dynamics (grip, response, feel, feedback, structure, I could go on)
Braking
Refinement
NVH control where it counts
Mass (less)
Powertrain synergy
Road trip comfort
Engineering


If all you care about is brute power, well then yeah, maybe the GT500. I bet the SS 1LE punches above it's "power" weight vs that generation of GT500.

If you are considering letting the 1LE go based partly on your #1 criteria, you are in the wrong hobby. Overanalyzing the changing market will only suck the fun out it. I'm not really sure what your endgame here is. Don't let the market dictate your enjoyment. Sure, you could have had a Gen6 ZL1, regret never makes things better. The overall market is down, due to many forces. The Gen6 production is done. But demand, albeit even if it is small demand, is still going to be there on the better Gen6 variants for a while. SS 1LE prices are still good. You're not going to get what you paid for it, at least right now.

I thoroughly enjoy every drive in my SS 1LE.

Are you doing track days at Pitt Race?
A Gen6 SS 1LE will be superior at Pitt Race over the GT500. Easily. Not just with lap time but in road course driving excellence. It's easy to go faster in the Camaro than the Mustang.

The heart wants what the heart wants. It sounds like the visceral part of brute power has you looking bigger. Good luck! Many walk away from the Gen6 and return after realizing how good they are. That rarely being a sound financial decision.

Thanks for your input! No plans on going to Pitt raceway THIS year but possibly next year (if I am keeping the 1le). This year I’m signed up for NJMP and Pocono. Will most likely do Watkins Glenn as well. I also thoroughly enjoy driving my 1le but man it’s frustrating driving such a capable car on public roads. I just feel this car is begging to go hard into corners but 1. There aren’t that many on my usual routes 2. I can’t do crazy cornering speeds on public roads. If I somehow wind up in the GT500 it will not be a track day car. More of a cruiser/highway pull car.

While I enjoy driving the 1le it can get boring/frustrating driving it. There just isn’t much drama when you plant your foot in it. Not sure why but these days I seem to be craving getting something “worse”. I know I won’t get what I paid for the 1le and I am fine with taking a loss, just not what the current trade in value is. I’d sell for less than a dealers asking price but would have to be a few grand above trade in.

One thing I disagree with you on is I think the GT500 would be more comfortable than the SS 1le in tour mode on all season tires. I had an s197 GT and those cars are just comfy cruisers. They are closer to a truck than a sports car in how they ride. You have a great point about not letting the market dictate my choice but I just seem to want more horsepower. It just wasn’t much of an upgrade going from an SS to an SS 1le. If I keep this car it will have to get bolt ons at the very least even though I’m not too keen on modding vehicles as much anymore. It’s just way too boring in a straight line and I'm too used to the power and need more it seems.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by m6-lt1

Thanks for the suggestion. Price wise alpha ZL1’s that are priced the same as 13/14 GT500’s are the 17/18’s. I really don’t want to spend 50+ thousand and then drop another 3k on an oil pump since 17/18’s are susceptible to oil pump issues.

I’ve seen too many modded LT1’s on this board have issues. I just don’t think the GM platforms are as reliable as the Ford platforms once you begin to mod. If I did mod I believe a Heads Cam SS 1le would be one of the most fun cars but I just don’t think I want to deal with the maintenance of a heads cam car.

The other thing is I kind of miss having a “muscle” car. The alpha platform cars are so good that it gets boring driving them unless you’re on a race track. At least that’s how I personally feel. There’s just no drama when you put your foot down. I’m sure the ZL1 has more drama than the SS 1LE but I’d be willing to bet not as much as the s197 GT500.

I bought my SS 1le with the intention of doing 3-5 track days per year. First one is 6/1. I realize now I bought the wrong car because 99% of my driving is street driving. If the market picks back up this spring I’m going to try to sell the car before 6/1. I’m willing to take a small loss on the car but not the same size loss as trading it in. My heart is pretty set on the 13/14 GT500. I love higher HP cars. You can use the HP safely on an empty road but you can’t use the handling prowess of a car with high handling limits on the street. The GT500 was a bucket list car for me and I might kick myself down the road if I don’t scoop one up when I have the opportunity too.

Based on your posts you sounds like you have your mind made up. But, why not spend a little more and get a 20+ ZL1 then? It’ll be a much better car than a 13/14 GT500 in every way and much newer.

I guess the GT500 would feel less composed and thereby perhaps feel more “lively” or exciting on the street or whatever, but that’s because it’s much taller, slightly narrower, has a worse front/rear weight ratio (57% up front vs 54% for a ZL1), and a solid rear axle and narrower tires. The ZL1 is as quick as the 13/14 GT500 in a straight line and a much better handling car. Not to mention the more modern interior (compared to one designed in the early 2000s).

Anyway, you can obviously do what you like but that’s what I would do in your shoes.

[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Based on your posts you sounds like you have your mind made up. But, why not spend a little more and get a 20+ ZL1 then? It’ll be a much better car than a 13/14 GT500 in every way and much newer.

I guess the GT500 would feel less composed and thereby perhaps feel more “lively” or exciting on the street or whatever, but that’s because it’s much taller, slightly narrower, has a worse front/rear weight ratio (57% up front vs 54% for a ZL1), and a solid rear axle and narrower tires. The ZL1 is as quick as the 13/14 GT500 in a straight line and a much better handling car. Not to mention the more modern interior (compared to one designed in the early 2000s).

Anyway, you can obviously do what you like but that’s what I would do in your shoes.

I actually was looking at 19+ zl1’s today. Some are reasonably priced. 2 problems with the 19+ zl1. 1: it’s almost impossible to find an M6 for sale. Roughly 30% of zl1’s made are manual. That’s slim Pickens for me. A10 is out of the question. If I’m bored in my m6 SS 1le I’d be even more bored in an A10 zl1. 2: If the Zl1 just hooks and goes when you plant your foot, I can see myself still craving a more raw experience. I’m going to try my best to test drive one but it’s kinda hard to find a dealer that will allow me to test drive one.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by m6-lt1

I actually was looking at 19+ zl1’s today. Some are reasonably priced. 2 problems with the 19+ zl1. 1: it’s almost impossible to find an M6 for sale. Roughly 30% of zl1’s made are manual. That’s slim Pickens for me. A10 is out of the question. If I’m bored in my m6 SS 1le I’d be even more bored in an A10 zl1. 2: If the Zl1 just hooks and goes when you plant your foot, I can see myself still craving a more raw experience. I’m going to try my best to test drive one but it’s kinda hard to find a dealer that will allow me to test drive one.

It’s 650 ft-lbs, of course you can spin the tires. I can easily spin the tires in my A10 ZL1 in 2nd gear. And traction control reins it in out of a turn. Turn off TC and you’ll probably end up sideways or in a ditch. But clearly you want the GT500 so just get one.

[silversleeper]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

It’s 650 ft-lbs, of course you can spin the tires. I can easily spin the tires in my A10 ZL1 in 2nd gear. And traction control reins it in out of a turn. Turn off TC and you’ll probably end up sideways or in a ditch. But clearly you want the GT500 so just get one.

I was going to say that. You don't know what you don't know. In my 5th ZL1 I wanted more tire spinning power. The bolt on mods including tune and e85 put it around 700 crank. It just spins 1st and into second with a 6 speed auto. I did get sideways a couple times as you point out. Stability control helped me save it from looping around in the middle of the street. I rarely turn off TC because I know what will happen. So now you have TC pulling back your power from your mods until it's even less than stock as you spin the rears and it fights you to get them back under control. The rest of the pull feels like a dog. The big hp is only good for a highway pull which I don't do or a prepped drag strip with sticky race rears which I don't go to the strip anymore as they close down and don't buy those kind of tires. You don't know what bigger hp does on the street from just numbers or youtube.
I still love the ZL1s and the GT500s are cool with me too, I'm not so brand loyal but they are behind in handling for certain at least in the mid 2000s.
Yep with TC and Stability controls off like a Keyboard Hero we'll see the car on AA auction all smunched up for sale soon.

[ariZona28]

I'm surprised there's been no mention of the Hellcat family. Pretty sure those behemoths were engineered to keep tire manufacturers shareholders happy.

[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by MSS1LE

Basically the 1LE handles to well for you? You want something truer to muscle car roots. Less composed less refined, more of a straight line acceleration machine. Sounds like you will be making the right move going to a GT500.

I lived through the muscle car era and owned an original GTO. I wish I still had it, BUT, my 1LE is a far superior car in every performance metric that matters.

If I were going to upgrade from my 1LE I would go with a ZLE or a Corvette (if they offered a manual).

This is pretty much it. If I lived at the track (which I don't) I wouldn't even think about a switch. The SS 1LE imo is the best track car for the price. I guess I should mention I only drive my fun car once a week on average. Because of this I feel a more raw and lively car like the GT500 would be more fun for me. Also I daily a POS 2009 Toyota. Believe it or not the S197 GT500 would be an upgrade interior wise versus my daily so it would still feel nice to sit in it versus what I drive most other days.

Side note my father in law also regrets getting rid of his GTO. If I ever have the means to gift someone a 60k car I will buy him one but I doubt that will happen haha.

Originally Posted by silversleeper

I was going to say that. You don't know what you don't know. In my 5th ZL1 I wanted more tire spinning power. The bolt on mods including tune and e85 put it around 700 crank. It just spins 1st and into second with a 6 speed auto. I did get sideways a couple times as you point out. Stability control helped me save it from looping around in the middle of the street. I rarely turn off TC because I know what will happen. So now you have TC pulling back your power from your mods until it's even less than stock as you spin the rears and it fights you to get them back under control. The rest of the pull feels like a dog. The big hp is only good for a highway pull which I don't do or a prepped drag strip with sticky race rears which I don't go to the strip anymore as they close down and don't buy those kind of tires. You don't know what bigger hp does on the street from just numbers or youtube.
I still love the ZL1s and the GT500s are cool with me too, I'm not so brand loyal but they are behind in handling for certain at least in the mid 2000s.
Yep with TC and Stability controls off like a Keyboard Hero we'll see the car on AA auction all smunched up for sale soon.

Don't worry I know not to turn TC and Stability off in the GT500 haha. I'm actually going to drive out into the "country" with my 1LE this weekend, turn TC and Stability off and see if I can get convinced to keep it. I have done it before and it just didn't seem that lively/visceral but I'll try again. I also live near big empty highways and i'll be honest I enjoy doing a pull here and there and the GT500 will probably be a very fun car for that.

Originally Posted by ariZona28

I'm surprised there's been no mention of the Hellcat family. Pretty sure those behemoths were engineered to keep tire manufacturers shareholders happy.

Two reasons, I mentioned earlier (and also see my username) that I am strictly a manual guy. Finding a manual Hellcat is way harder than finding a manual Zl1 (which is actually harder than you'd think). The other reason is Hellcats are very sought after and the prices on them are very high.