Project clutch master cylinder/second gear grind

[arkentect]

V6 mc price shipped to 14450. Hoping this is my cure to a 1-2 shift crunch

[acammer]

Originally Posted by acammer

Ordered mine today. I have only the high rpm 1-2/2-3 grind - my trans shifts fine at lower rpms, no cold grinds. Probably exacerbated by the Hurst short throw - which is REALLY fast.

I'm really hopeful that this will let me drive the car how I've driven every other stick-shift car I've ever owned. I'll share my results once I get my install done - it may be a few weeks until the weather breaks enough to get over to the shop - definitely gonna be easier to bleed on a lift.

You guys have a hydraulic clutch system fluid of choice? I figure standard brake fluid should do, but if there is a magic bullet that resists the abuse of the heat and clutch dust better I'm all for it.

As promised, I'm reporting back after my install. The install is relatively straight forward. Definitely having the right angle attachment for the drill to run the self-tapping screws (#10x3/4) is extremely helpful when mounting the remote reservoir. And get your favorite contortionist friend to handle the under-dash work! Also, you don't get a lot of bleeds on that remote reservoir, so there is definitely some up/down on the lift - bleed it 2-3x then top it off, repeat a few times.

Got it bled good and got a good feeling pedal - maybe a touch lighter feel and touch higher engagement, but really not much of a different feel from stock. Drives normal under cruising circumstances. For the redline 6500rpm 1-2 and 2-3 shifts I would say I have definite improvement - I can snap those shifts off quicker than before. I came back from the test drive very happy indeed. However - if I'm super aggressive in pulling that shifter, I'll still grind the 1-2. I have no low speed grinds, not even cold - and the car downshifts just fine - I don't think I have a synchro issue.

I don't hold the master cylinder responsible here - I definitely got the improvement I was expecting. I believe that the Hurst (aftermarket with the 44% reduction) with it's major throw reduction is just capable of such incredibly fast shifts that its too easy to be getting to 2nd before the clutch is fully released. So I guess I can continue to drive around it (which is definitely possible) or I can start looking for another short throw option. I'm gonna post a thread specifically about the Hurst short throw and the 1-2 grind to see what kind of input the forum can give me - I appreciate any insight you guys can offer on the question to make this car bang gears like it should.

[IDEALG]

Originally Posted by acammer

As promised, I'm reporting back after my install. The install is relatively straight forward. Definitely having the right angle attachment for the drill to run the self-tapping screws (#10x3/4) is extremely helpful when mounting the remote reservoir. And get your favorite contortionist friend to handle the under-dash work! Also, you don't get a lot of bleeds on that remote reservoir, so there is definitely some up/down on the lift - bleed it 2-3x then top it off, repeat a few times.

Got it bled good and got a good feeling pedal - maybe a touch lighter feel and touch higher engagement, but really not much of a different feel from stock. Drives normal under cruising circumstances. For the redline 6500rpm 1-2 and 2-3 shifts I would say I have definite improvement - I can snap those shifts off quicker than before. I came back from the test drive very happy indeed. However - if I'm super aggressive in pulling that shifter, I'll still grind the 1-2. I have no low speed grinds, not even cold - and the car downshifts just fine - I don't think I have a synchro issue.

I don't hold the master cylinder responsible here - I definitely got the improvement I was expecting. I believe that the Hurst (aftermarket with the 44% reduction) with it's major throw reduction is just capable of such incredibly fast shifts that its too easy to be getting to 2nd before the clutch is fully released. So I guess I can continue to drive around it (which is definitely possible) or I can start looking for another short throw option. I'm gonna post a thread specifically about the Hurst short throw and the 1-2 grind to see what kind of input the forum can give me - I appreciate any insight you guys can offer on the question to make this car bang gears like it should.

I recommend bleeding the system while the main brake reservoir is still hooked up so you have more fluid to work with, then you can connect your GTO reservoir and block off the main reservoir.

We also recommend the MGW shifter instead of the Hurst.

[acammer]

Originally Posted by IDEALG

I recommend bleeding the system while the main brake reservoir is still hooked up so you have more fluid to work with, then you can connect your GTO reservoir and block off the main reservoir.

We also recommend the MGW shifter instead of the Hurst.

That's funny - when we were all finished I said to my buddy "we should have bleed that thing from the brake master."

I'm definitely looking into my options for short throws. Again - nobody mis-read me, the Ideal Garage clutch master cylinder is worth the money - I've got a quicker shift than I had before. Maybe I'm splitting hairs, or maybe this Hurst is screwing with my head, but I really would like to be able to rip of shifts without having to constantly remind myself "clutch, then shift" - I've had a bunch of stick cars that I raced and never had that problem till this car.

[acammer]

Just to aid and further the discussion, here is some before/after video. First video is the drag strip last fall on the stock master cylinder. That was about the limit of my shift speed without inducing a grind on the 1-2 and a crunch on the 2-3. Second part is today on the way home from lunch after having the Ideal Garage Master Cylinder in for a few days. The 1-2 is a little faster and again is pretty much at the limit for speed before grind. The 2-3 is definitely faster, and has no crunch at all on maximum effort, which that nearly was.

Am I expecting too much? I've never had to think about shifting so much, and it robs me of a little joy, not to mention the gross feeling of taking a little more life off the dogs and gears every time I grind that 1-2.

[acammer]

Back again with an update. I was able to obtain a stock SS shifter to try out. Swapped it out last night. That Hurst Billet Plus 2 was REALLY stuck in there, but we got it out with some persuasion. Stock shifter went in find. Much less play side to side than the Hurst, and perfectly silent. And the most important part - it'll rip a 1-2 shift off great now. No grinds. I ripped at least 25 hard/fast 1-2 shifts last night and didn't grind a single one. I may have felt a nibble just one, but nothing on the rest of them.

I'm thrilled - I can finally drive this thing like it always should have been. I can go back to driving "spinal cord" vesus having to be careful and deliberate on every shift. The stock shifter definitely has a longer throw, and weaker centering action - but not to the point of being an issue. My 2-3 shifts were quick and solid like always. And the shift effort is greatly reduced, no more notchy-ness or fighting to push into a gear.

The bushing on my Hurst were definitely pretty worn - I had lots of left-right play and just a tiny bit of forward/backward play. My theory is that due to the worn bushings I was getting an "incomplete" or "weak" push against the syncro. As guys probably know a syncro relies on pressure to push those clutch packs together and speed up/slow down the target gear. With a weaker push the syncro couldn't do the work it needed, nor could the gear pull firmly into place - and hence the grind.

I still contend that the Ideal Garage master cylinder was helpful in speeding up my shifts and reducing the grind - I had a noticable improvement with it's installation - and probably would still have a grind even with the stock shifter without it. But you Hurst Billet Pro 2 plus guys that are grinding - maybe consider trying your stock shifter out to see if that helps.

[xc_SS/RS]

Has anyone ever had this cure a second gear lock out for a high rpm shift? Very randomly I'll miss the shift to second, last time it felt like it was locked out. Not sure if it's a clutch issue or hydraulic issue and I haven't had it diagnosed at a shop yet since it happens so rarely

[5thgenlife]

Originally Posted by IDEALG

I'm working on a fix for our crappy clutch master cylinders. I'm going to make this one flow more fluid and i'm going to test it in my own camaro.
If this works as it should, it should eliminate our high rpm second gear grind. machine shop is hard at work, i will be updating as soon as i get it back together.

UPDATE: INSTALLATION VIDS http://youtu.be/l8vacHyCInw 1st one

http://youtu.be/txlMf92EX4k 2nd one


This is the link for purchasing the cylinders
www.jerryspeedshop.com


This is another link showing you the bleeder location and few extra tips.
http://youtu.be/x5edLIp2CoM

Edit - 4/28/2015 THIS IS AN OLD THREAD WITH A LOT OF POSTS SO IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ THROUGH IT ALL JUST GIVE ME A CALL OR PM ME IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS

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So i gave up reading this 1300 comment post.

What is the verdict with this? Links dont work and cant find anywhere else. I just installed a tick adjustable and haven't got to drive the car yet. I hear this might now allow the clutch to slip anymore and turn into an on/off clutch which i dont want. So what is the deal with this? I also have a 13 zl1 and wasnt sure if they are different then ss bc reading i seen something about this wasnt issue for zl1. I use prosthetic leg to shift and sometimes my pedal doesnt make it 100% to the floor causing a missed gear. Just installed a rxt clutch and missed 2nd gear every damn pass the first time out this year. Input?

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk

[acammer]

Originally Posted by 5thgenlife

So i gave up reading this 1300 comment post.

What is the verdict with this? Links dont work and cant find anywhere else. I just installed a tick adjustable and haven't got to drive the car yet. I hear this might now allow the clutch to slip anymore and turn into an on/off clutch which i dont want. So what is the deal with this? I also have a 13 zl1 and wasnt sure if they are different then ss bc reading i seen something about this wasnt issue for zl1. I use prosthetic leg to shift and sometimes my pedal doesnt make it 100% to the floor causing a missed gear. Just installed a rxt clutch and missed 2nd gear every damn pass the first time out this year. Input?

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk

I installed this about 3 years ago in my car, and it works great. It brings the engagement point further off the flow, and helped (but didn't cure) all my high rpm 1-2 shifting issues. I have replaced everything in the clutch hydraulic system at this point, I have a Ideal Garage slave with remote reservoir, new slave with billet throwout bearing support, and a speed bleeder. All that has really helped, but the biggest thing I did to fix my 1-2 grind was go back to the OEM shifter. I had the aftermarket Hurst, and it made a good fast high rpm 1-2 nearly impossible. I don't know exactly why, but I suspect it has to do with leverage and the speed at which everything happens, but using the stock shift cured a lot of my issues. I don't miss the Hurst a bit!

I don't know if you can get these Ideal Garage Master's anymore, they were a limited production run sort of thing. The tick adjustable master should do a good job once dialed in.

[Nb1081]

They dont do them anymore I called last year

[acammer]

Originally Posted by Nb1081

They dont do them anymore I called last year

That's a bummer - these are a good part! I suppose now that Tick has a billet adjustable that should fill the void. I appreciate Jerry being a true pioneer and giving use 5th gen guys a part we sorely needed. I know every time I bang the 1-2 shift my trans thanks that high-flow master!

[V8only]

I installed the ideal master that i've had laying around for a while. Works great. after bleeding, my clutch, which I thought was toast, has a whole new life to it and I can finally launch. Second gear grind is still present though, and the MGW shifter install made it worse, because of how fast I can shift now. Trans is going to have to come out...luckily for me I can build my own trannies so not a huge deal.

[Black_SS10]

I had the IdealG master installed. I swapped to a factory one. I have a remote reservoir and braided clutch lines. I built my trans and put full carbon fiber blocker rings in, with the 1 to 2 being a triple cone. I havent had any gear grinds, even with high rpm speed shifts. I believe it being a poor blocker ring design rather than poor hydraulics.

[dlc]

Originally Posted by Black_SS10

I had the IdealG master installed. I swapped to a factory one. I have a remote reservoir and braided clutch lines. I built my trans and put full carbon fiber blocker rings in, with the 1 to 2 being a triple cone. I havent had any gear grinds, even with high rpm speed shifts. I believe it being a poor blocker ring design rather than poor hydraulics.

I am soon to do the good blocker rings, the better shift fork pads, some deburring, ect. Anything it needs really. I'd buy your IdealG clutch master cyl if your willing to part with it. You see I read that entire thread... TWICE. Now I feel like I just gota have. Thanks DC