[hotlap]

Originally Posted by collinms

https://www2.motorauthority.com/news...g-shelby-gt500

Ouch...

Does that mean that making the GT500 a fast track car wasn't as simple as throwing 200 HP at a GT350R?

Wouldn't that also mean it wasn't a given that the non-track variant of the ZL1 would be faster than the track variant GT350R just because it has more power. Like when the 14 GT500 (662 HP) wasn't faster than the 14 Z/28 (505 HP)?

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand this theory but it also can put you in an awkward position being locked into power updates only at new Gen models. Ford failed badly with the 15-17 GT across the board, taking a step backwards IMO, but corrected that in 2018, and may again with another power bump in 2020 to Bullet power numbers. Who knows where Dodge stands but they are due for a 6.4L power bump as well.

Most talk has the 7th Gen debut in 2021, that is a long way off. I guess there is no right/wrong way to handle this.

The only reason Ford might be able to do that in 2020 is because they extended the entire S550 for an extra year. So they will have had 7 years as compared to the Camaro having 6. All GM would have to do is put out an additional offering. But if it's gonna in any way put a damper on what they're doing for the 7th Gen, like we've seen happen to Ford this entire S550 platform, then screw it. Focus on the next thing and move on.

Or do like Dodge is doing with the Hellcat. Remove all options from the ZL1 and offer it bare bones at Bullitt prices.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

"Simple" bolt-ons this and that. Blower and you're in the 10s. I've seen many a supercharged GT at my local track when I was going. You know what they all ran? Mid to low, sometimes low, 11s. But...they all did like 1 run, then sat with ice on the blower for like an hour, then did another run...then sat for a while again and missed 2 or 3 runs. Etc...

If I can find this video I have of a PD supercharged 17 GT running 11.5s all night then I'll post it on YT and put the link on here.

I have seen a couple of those blown Coytotes run like you said, But many faster ones. One example is my friend Pat's last 3 auto GTs:

'13 S197 auto GT Paxton, stock PSI, Injectors, tune, DRs = 10.8@130
'15 S550 auto GT Paxton, stock PSI, pulley, Injectors, tune, DRs = 10.5@132
'17 S550 auto GT Paxton, stock PSI, pulley Injectors, tune, convertor, DRs, seats out = 10.259@135.51

All in negative Atco air of course and were the result of much seat time. So It could very well be just about any puffed out Coyote might be capable of 10s with more seat time. But some get discouraged and don't come back to get better.

My ZL1 has run a best of 11.184 @ 129.07 with 17" DRs and a Rotofab. So my opinion is yea bolt, on a supercharger to an auto Coyote and you have a faster car than a stock ZL1 IF you learn how to drive it. I would say the same for current gen auto SSes.

And BTW my ZL1 is regularly crushed by a local bolton auto SS.

But I can't say any bolton Coyotes have beaten me so far. But then I see very few of these.

[Bosse'sBoss]

Originally Posted by collinms

https://www2.motorauthority.com/news...g-shelby-gt500

Ouch...

Then it seems that it would be only a straight line contender to the Hellcat, not a risk to the Zl1.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Does that mean that making the GT500 a fast track car wasn't as simple as throwing 200 HP at a GT350R?

Wouldn't that also mean it wasn't a given that the non-track variant of the ZL1 would be faster than the track variant GT350R just because it has more power. Like when the 14 GT500 (662 HP) wasn't faster than the 14 Z/28 (505 HP)?

Originally Posted by Bosse'sBoss

Then it seems that it would be only a straight line contender to the Hellcat, not a risk to the Zl1.

Did you guys not read the article or did you just look at the headline? Nothing in the article comes off as its a straight line car only.

Many automakers—including Chevrolet and Fiat Chrysler Automobiles—have made the Nürburgring-Nordschleife the lap time benchmark, but it's not in the plan for the Shelby GT500 according to Widmann.

"It's not a benchmark for Ford," he said

"The boss of Ford Performance did say that the automaker will likely give a GT500 to Car and Driver for the publication's annual Lightning Lap test at Virginia International Raceway, and a lap time would be published from that test.

Ford's lack of interest on chasing lap times with the 2020 Mustang Shelby GT500 comes as no surprise, it took the same stance with its GT supercar."

If the car was going to be a straightline car only, they would not be offeringe a track pack with adjustable suspension bits, super sticky tires, super aggressive aero and rear seat delete.

All this article did was confirm that Ford is not changing its stance, that it doesn't use lap times as a benchmark/advertising tool

[collinms]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Did you guys not read the article or did you just look at the headline? Nothing in the article comes off as its a straight line car only.

Many automakers—including Chevrolet and Fiat Chrysler Automobiles—have made the Nürburgring-Nordschleife the lap time benchmark, but it's not in the plan for the Shelby GT500 according to Widmann.

"It's not a benchmark for Ford," he said

"The boss of Ford Performance did say that the automaker will likely give a GT500 to Car and Driver for the publication's annual Lightning Lap test at Virginia International Raceway, and a lap time would be published from that test.

Ford's lack of interest on chasing lap times with the 2020 Mustang Shelby GT500 comes as no surprise, it took the same stance with its GT supercar."

If the car was going to be a straightline car only, they would not be offeringe a track pack with adjustable suspension bits, super sticky tires, super aggressive aero and rear seat delete.

All this article did was confirm that Ford is not changing its stance, that it doesn't use lap times as a benchmark/advertising tool

Weird, everyone else in the car industry does.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by collinms

Weird, everyone else in the car industry does.

Some see it as a viable marketing tool, others don't.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

I have seen a couple of those blown Coytotes run like you said, But many faster ones. One example is my friend Pat's last 3 auto GTs:

'13 S197 auto GT Paxton, stock PSI, Injectors, tune, DRs = 10.8@130
'15 S550 auto GT Paxton, stock PSI, pulley, Injectors, tune, DRs = 10.5@132
'17 S550 auto GT Paxton, stock PSI, pulley Injectors, tune, convertor, DRs, seats out = 10.259@135.51

All in negative Atco air of course and were the result of much seat time. So It could very well be just about any puffed out Coyote might be capable of 10s with more seat time. But some get discouraged and don't come back to get better.

My ZL1 has run a best of 11.184 @ 129.07 with 17" DRs and a Rotofab. So my opinion is yea bolt, on a supercharger to an auto Coyote and you have a faster car than a stock ZL1 IF you learn how to drive it. I would say the same for current gen auto SSes.

And BTW my ZL1 is regularly crushed by a local bolton auto SS.

But I can't say any bolton Coyotes have beaten me so far. But then I see very few of these.

Yes a GT and a SS with a blower would typically be making more HP than a stock ZL1. Most of them have upgraded to a smaller pulley and are on a race tune when they come to the track. So I believe you when you say they are faster than a stock ZL1 as I have experienced this myself. Some of them are even further modded with a TC and LTs and all sorts of other stuff. Again, these are far from the "simple bolt-on" Coyotes that we keep hearing people talk about. The problem is that people go around repeating this like it's Gospel when it isn't. So these guys really do think that a GT with a blower only is a 10 sec car...or that simple bolt-ons makes a GT faster than a ZL1. Thanks for your input man!!

[shaffe]

Fraxum can always be counted on for real world experience, because I think he lives at Atco haha

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Did you guys not read the article or did you just look at the headline? Nothing in the article comes off as its a straight line car only.

Many automakers—including Chevrolet and Fiat Chrysler Automobiles—have made the Nürburgring-Nordschleife the lap time benchmark, but it's not in the plan for the Shelby GT500 according to Widmann.

"It's not a benchmark for Ford," he said

"The boss of Ford Performance did say that the automaker will likely give a GT500 to Car and Driver for the publication's annual Lightning Lap test at Virginia International Raceway, and a lap time would be published from that test.

Ford's lack of interest on chasing lap times with the 2020 Mustang Shelby GT500 comes as no surprise, it took the same stance with its GT supercar."

If the car was going to be a straightline car only, they would not be offeringe a track pack with adjustable suspension bits, super sticky tires, super aggressive aero and rear seat delete.

All this article did was confirm that Ford is not changing its stance, that it doesn't use lap times as a benchmark/advertising tool

<cough> PP2 <cough>

Ok. Now that I got that out of my system, the GT500 is definitely expected to be a track car, because of the stuff shaffe listed, plus the inclusion of coolers, plus the fact that they specifically call the CF content a track package. I get them saying "we aren't gonna set out to post record N'ring numbers". I don't know why they wouldn't but their reasons aren't really important to me. The fact that they intend to provide it for the Lightning Lap at VIR speaks volumes.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Did you guys not read the article or did you just look at the headline? Nothing in the article comes off as its a straight line car only.

I did not. ...but will. Promise.
A head to head with the ZL1 1LE is a must.

[V8 Fan]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

...


Let's go Gen by Gen. Cliff notes...

5th Gen:
-11 GT had to catch up to the 10 SS.
-13 GT500 was catching up to the 12 ZL1.
-15 GT350 was catching up to the 14 Z28. Which we all agree was a stupid and foolish errand on Ford's part.

6th Gen:
-18 GT had to catch up to the 16 SS.
-18 GT PP2 had to catch up to the 17 SLE. And even at that it wasn't available until after the 2nd half of 2018.
-2020 GT500 has to catch up to the 17 ZL1. Will it match the ZLE? Until it does the ZLE will remain the fastest.

Did I miss anything??

Actually, yes. You did miss something. It's called the '11/'12 GT500. I noticed that you keep conveniently forgetting that car in your lists. In fact, your hardcore fanboy-ism is what "forced" me to even sign up just so I could respond to it.


You forget that the Mustang is the first and original pony car. It will NEVER have to "answer to" any other car in the segment. Now, with that out of the way, what was Chevy's answer to:


'03 Cobra?
'05 Mustang GT?
'07 Mustang Bullitt?
'07 GT500?
'08 GT500KR?
'10 GT500?


If the Mustang is always "answering to" the Camaro, where was the Camaro from '03 - '09? What possible reason would Ford have had to make so many updates to the Mustang during a time when the Camaro didn't even exist, except in wishful thoughts?


Now let's go back to the '11/'12 GT500 for a minute. You claim that Ford had to "answer to" the '12 ZL1 with the '13 GT500. You couldn't be more wrong nor disingenuous. The '12 ZL1 was answering to the '11/'12 GT500. And even then, it only matched the GT500 in most performance metrics, and even the Boss 302 could best the ZL1 on a track. To add insult to injury, Ford dropped the '13 GT500 almost specifically just to dip their balls into Chevy's mouth when Chevy announced the '12 ZL1.


Now enter the Z28. The Z28 was a badass car that took the world by storm. It embarrassed ALL of the pony cars around a track, including the ZL1 and Boss 302 Laguna Seca. But, it came at the end of the 5th gen's run and the Mustang S197 program was already shutting down. So there was no chance of an S197 rival, even though the Z28 was actually answering to the Boss 302 Laguna Seca which was already out of production when the Z28 arrived.



Skip ahead a couple years to the Mustang S550. Ford shocks the world with the GT350 and GT350R. Chevy is pretty much caught flatfooted and doesn't even try to make a direct competitor. No, the ZL1 and ZL1 1LE are not direct competitors to the GT350s. That said, data show that neither of the ZL1s are appreciably better than the GT350R in the handling department. The deltas between HP/TRQ and track times bear that out. Look at the VIR times of each. Even with the ZL1 1LE's power advantage and supposedly superior suspension setup, there's "only" a 6 second difference between them. Yes, I know 6 seconds on a track is a LONG time! However, on a track like VIR that rewards big power, you would think the ZL1 1LE would be much further ahead. Now look at a more technical track like Laguna Seca. All that power and tech on the ZL1 1LE netted a whopping 1.81 second advantage over the GT350R. The standard ZL1 was a whole 0.9 second faster. That should let you know the GT350R is a better handler. And then there's this:





Notice which one finished first.



Now fast forward a few more years. Enter the GT500. The lead engineer pretty much specifically stated the GT500 had to answer to the GT350R. His actual words were "It had to be at least as good as the GT350R." We can infer that he was talking about the handling. So imagine the GT350R with another 200HP that it's been (re)engineered to harness. You'd have to be the biggest fanboy in the world to even remotely believe the GT500 isn't going to smash the ZL1 1LE.




Now, with ALL THAT said, I'm not here to bash or fight. I just couldn't take your disingenuous fanboy-ism anymore. I get that you love your car. There's a lot to love about it. But sheesh! Take it down a notch or two or three. I actually like BOTH the Mustang and Camaro, even the latest update to the Camaro which seems to be almost universally derided. I think it looks sharp (especially in that bright green color), but that's apparently just me. I actually dislike the '18 Mustang update very much. I actually don't like the S550, in general, except for the GT350s. Those are hot.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by V8 Fan

Actually, yes. You did miss something. It's called the '11/'12 GT500. I noticed that you keep conveniently forgetting that car in your lists. In fact, your hardcore fanboy-ism is what "forced" me to even sign up just so I could respond to it.


You forget that the Mustang is the first and original pony car. It will NEVER have to "answer to" any other car in the segment. Now, with that out of the way, what was Chevy's answer to:


'03 Cobra?
'05 Mustang GT?
'07 Mustang Bullitt?
'07 GT500?
'08 GT500KR?
'10 GT500?


If the Mustang is always "answering to" the Camaro, where was the Camaro from '03 - '09? What possible reason would Ford have had to make so many updates to the Mustang during a time when the Camaro didn't even exist, except in wishful thoughts?


Now let's go back to the '11/'12 GT500 for a minute. You claim that Ford had to "answer to" the '12 ZL1 with the '13 GT500. You couldn't be more wrong nor disingenuous. The '12 ZL1 was answering to the '11/'12 GT500. And even then, it only matched the GT500 in most performance metrics, and even the Boss 302 could best the ZL1 on a track. To add insult to injury, Ford dropped the '13 GT500 almost specifically just to dip their balls into Chevy's mouth when Chevy announced the '12 ZL1.


Now enter the Z28. The Z28 was a badass car that took the world by storm. It embarrassed ALL of the pony cars around a track, including the ZL1 and Boss 302 Laguna Seca. But, it came at the end of the 5th gen's run and the Mustang S197 program was already shutting down. So there was no chance of an S197 rival, even though the Z28 was actually answering to the Boss 302 Laguna Seca which was already out of production when the Z28 arrived.



Skip ahead a couple years to the Mustang S550. Ford shocks the world with the GT350 and GT350R. Chevy is pretty much caught flatfooted and doesn't even try to make a direct competitor. No, the ZL1 and ZL1 1LE are not direct competitors to the GT350s. That said, data show that neither of the ZL1s are appreciably better than the GT350R in the handling department. The deltas between HP/TRQ and track times bear that out. Look at the VIR times of each. Even with the ZL1 1LE's power advantage and supposedly superior suspension setup, there's "only" a 6 second difference between them. Yes, I know 6 seconds on a track is a LONG time! However, on a track like VIR that rewards big power, you would think the ZL1 1LE would be much further ahead. Now look at a more technical track like Laguna Seca. All that power and tech on the ZL1 1LE netted a whopping 1.81 second advantage over the GT350R. The standard ZL1 was a whole 0.9 second faster. That should let you know the GT350R is a better handler. And then there's this:





Notice which one finished first.



Now fast forward a few more years. Enter the GT500. The lead engineer pretty much specifically stated the GT500 had to answer to the GT350R. His actual words were "It had to be at least as good as the GT350R." We can infer that he was talking about the handling. So imagine the GT350R with another 200HP that it's been (re)engineered to harness. You'd have to be the biggest fanboy in the world to even remotely believe the GT500 isn't going to smash the ZL1 1LE.




Now, with ALL THAT said, I'm not here to bash or fight. I just couldn't take your disingenuous fanboy-ism anymore. I get that you love your car. There's a lot to love about it. But sheesh! Take it down a notch or two or three. I actually like BOTH the Mustang and Camaro, even the latest update to the Camaro which seems to be almost universally derided. I think it looks sharp (especially in that bright green color), but that's apparently just me. I actually dislike the '18 Mustang update very much. I actually don't like the S550, in general, except for the GT350s. Those are hot.

Saw this was your first post, noticed you directly came at me (lol, I have that effect on Mustang guys), read your first paragraph, yawned, and that was about it. Tell the guys on M6G I said "hello". Are they still copying and pasting my posts over there??

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Did you guys not read the article or did you just look at the headline? Nothing in the article comes off as its a straight line car only.

Many automakers—including Chevrolet and Fiat Chrysler Automobiles—have made the Nürburgring-Nordschleife the lap time benchmark, but it's not in the plan for the Shelby GT500 according to Widmann.

"It's not a benchmark for Ford," he said

"The boss of Ford Performance did say that the automaker will likely give a GT500 to Car and Driver for the publication's annual Lightning Lap test at Virginia International Raceway, and a lap time would be published from that test.

Ford's lack of interest on chasing lap times with the 2020 Mustang Shelby GT500 comes as no surprise, it took the same stance with its GT supercar."

If the car was going to be a straightline car only, they would not be offeringe a track pack with adjustable suspension bits, super sticky tires, super aggressive aero and rear seat delete.

All this article did was confirm that Ford is not changing its stance, that it doesn't use lap times as a benchmark/advertising tool

My question is this...why is Ford constantly backing down? They have no problem posting when the Mustang does a good quarter mile time. Yet they have these weird statements when it comes to the track. Meanwhile Chevy puts their cars out there to be tested.