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Old 06-01-2016, 07:17 PM   #239
Blueclyde

 
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Originally Posted by Richard0nee View Post
I suggest you get the cheaper Mustang if you're a practical buyer! This car isn't cheap, GM put a lot of work into it and the price is justifiable.

If you're a really practical buyer, why are you looking at a high performance car? You want to purchase a high performance vehicle but want GM to consider the practical buyers? It doens't make sense.

That's why there are V6's and inline 4 turbos.

I'm actually loving how the SS aren't really selling.. they SHOULDN'T because it's not catered to the practical buyer, to those who aren't willing to pay $ money for the extra performance and gadgets.

Once a car gets to the 40k range, it won't sell as much volume period.

Thus, this thread should be really why the V6/i4 aren't selling..
You are missing the point here. I'm glad you are happy with your car. It's a great car and clearly a purchase you could justify.
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Old 06-01-2016, 07:19 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by Enator View Post
May 2016 Delivery (sales) Stats:

Camaro May 2016 Deliveries (actual sales): 5,827 -40% (Pr Ye)

Compared to Competition:

Mustang May 2016 Delivery (sales):10,327 24% (Pr Ye)
Challenger May 2016 Delivery (sales):6,677 10% (Pr Ye)
IMHO, this slide is the most telling. Camaro with a long term downward trend with Mustang and Challenger on long term upward trends.
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Old 06-01-2016, 07:19 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
Something has to change at this point. We shall see what happens.

Having an all new NG car outsold by the Challenger is quite frankly an embarrassment for a few people at GM.

At this point someone is answering questions I expect no one thought a year plus ago were ever going to be asked.
I completely agree with you.
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Old 06-01-2016, 07:23 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Richard0nee View Post
I suggest you get the cheaper Mustang if you're a practical buyer! This car isn't cheap, GM put a lot of work into it and the price is justifiable.

If you're a really practical buyer, why are you looking at a high performance car? You want to purchase a high performance vehicle but want GM to consider the practical buyers? It doens't make sense.

That's why there are V6's and inline 4 turbos.

I'm actually loving how the SS aren't really selling.. they SHOULDN'T because it's not catered to the practical buyer, to those who aren't willing to pay $ money for the extra performance and gadgets.

Once a car gets to the 40k range, it won't sell as much volume period.

Thus, this thread should be really why the V6/i4 aren't selling..
Good points. Same reason why Miatas only sell a 1000 per month. And the Miata is touted as the most fun car to drive on the planet... The reality is new cars are expensive and the majority of sales go to basic transportation like Honda Civics and Accords, Toyota Camrys and Corollas. Luxury folks want status from Caddys, Lexus, Infiniti, Audi, Mercedes and BMW. If you look at sports cars/coupes what is left? Mustang, Camaro, Challenger... You have the lightweight low power crowd with Miatas and FRS/BRZ. You then get the turbo 4 crowd with Subaru WRX/STI and VW Golf GTIs. The 370z is long in the tooth but fits somewhere in heavy two seater class. If you go high-line sports cars you are moving up to a new Corvete Stingray Z06, Nissan GTR, Audi R8, Dodge Viper, maybe a Hellcat? These all cost like a $80k or more.

No car is perfect, there are always compromises but when you look at what is available in the market and if you really compare the Camaro SS to everything else you will start to see what a great value it represents. The challenge is that it seems like a large portion of the Camaro fan base doesn't want to move up market with the car. They want it to stay at $32k-35k forever. I felt like that initially as well but then I test drove it and compared it to my 2013 2SS 1LE and it is a nice improvement. I really feel like this is a cheaper Corvette, which is right up my ally. It has an emergency back seat for when I need it and 95% of the performance of a Corvette. If you could get very close to the Corvette experience for 15-20k less then is it considered a great value? Maybe GM will release a Chevy Cruise SS or something like that in the future for 28-30k to satisfy that segment of the market.
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Old 06-01-2016, 07:29 PM   #243
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Go re-read what I wrote. Yes, first time buyers understand horsepower. But more important to the PRICE CONSCIOUS (and that is the category I was addressing) IS COST - they do not care nearly as much about horsepower as they do PRICE.

Any other category of buyers - and there are many - balance the other factors including HP.

And I also said both sides of engine types can be argued - until it is a buyer looking for low initial cost.

Thank you.
A PRICE CONSCIOUS buyer would immediately discount the Camaro because it costs more. PRICE CONSCIOUS buyers would simply pick the cheaper car in the category and be done, which isn't the Camaro. So if that's what you were trying to say I agree, but it didn't come out that way.

So no..no Ford salesman would make a pitch about V6 manliness or V6 is better than a T4 since he would purposely cut off his upsale push for the EB (which costs more but gets better MPG than the V6). And most buyers today do not discount the 4 cylinder. They see it as the economical choice (even though premium fuel being required usually offsets the MPG difference) over a V6. This is why Ford positioning the EB as mid tier was a real gamble, but their packaging of it and PR machine I think helped that pay off. Let's not forget the V6 in the Mustang was "purposely" downgraded on HP to make the EB seem more attractive.

Now a buyer looking for leather or other features would have a tougher decision since both the EB Premium and 2LT are very comparably matched. There's about a $600 difference in price (EB being cheaper) outside of engine power. That where the differences start to become an issue to me. Ford has the power advantage and factory HIDs at that point, where as you have to add the LGX and RS package to match the EB Premium. It's these "optioned" cars in the LT that are over priced IMO. Again...bad packaging.
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Old 06-01-2016, 07:34 PM   #244
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and don't forget they have Gas Monkey Richard Rawlings doing Dodge Challenger and Charger TV commercials every night. Where are the Camaro ads...
Challenger sales have been noticeably better since the '15 refresh (and before the Hellcats)...way before their advertising started. For a brief time, the Challenger had a nicer interior and better technology than the Camaro and Mustang. But then the 6th gen Mustang went on sale. During that same time the 5th gen Camaro was still selling quite a bit higher than the Challenger. Another example of how advertising doesn't necessarily translate to sales. Don't need commercials to make Mustangs sale that's for sure.
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Old 06-01-2016, 07:48 PM   #245
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From my perspective, the "slump" in sales can also be attributed to the incredible popularity of the 5th Gens.

I purchased my 2011 Camaro in December of 2010. Almost immediately I was introduced to a new way of life- joined a Camaro club, went to C5 Fest II, many car shows, etc.

Fast forward to today, I'm still hanging out with a lot of the same people. Die-Hard Camaro fans who have put miles, mods, and TLC into their Camaros. And perhaps most importantly, have paid them off completely....or close to it.

All of us LOVE the 6th Gens and would definitely like to have one. No question. But when we step back and see our modded beauties who we haven't paid for in several months and still turn heads, it's hard to justify (or convince wives) that it's time to spend another 40k and start all over.

I can honestly think of about 20 people off the top of my head who really appreciate the 6th Gens and all the improvements they have, but won't/can't make the jump (yet, anyway). I think Chevrolet hit an absolute home run with the 6th Gen, but it's going to be an uphill battle to win over the few people who weren't already won over by the greatness of the 5th Gen.
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Old 06-01-2016, 08:14 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by whiteknight012 View Post
From my perspective, the "slump" in sales can also be attributed to the incredible popularity of the 5th Gens.

I purchased my 2011 Camaro in December of 2010. Almost immediately I was introduced to a new way of life- joined a Camaro club, went to C5 Fest II, many car shows, etc.

Fast forward to today, I'm still hanging out with a lot of the same people. Die-Hard Camaro fans who have put miles, mods, and TLC into their Camaros. And perhaps most importantly, have paid them off completely....or close to it.

All of us LOVE the 6th Gens and would definitely like to have one. No question. But when we step back and see our modded beauties who we haven't paid for in several months and still turn heads, it's hard to justify (or convince wives) that it's time to spend another 40k and start all over.

I can honestly think of about 20 people off the top of my head who really appreciate the 6th Gens and all the improvements they have, but won't/can't make the jump (yet, anyway). I think Chevrolet hit an absolute home run with the 6th Gen, but it's going to be an uphill battle to win over the few people who weren't already won over by the greatness of the 5th Gen.
Agreed, the 5th Gen really was a home run. You had a market with pent up demand since the Camaro took a hiatus in 2002, plus the launch coincided with the popular movie franchise. Then came the ZL1 and 1LE, which had improved the Camaro even more. If I didn't lease mine I probably would still be in it.

Now that I am in a 6th Gen, the car feels a lot more refined to me. I am getting older now as well so I may be appreciating things like MRC Tour mode for when I am just in the mood to cruise. Flip a switch and set it to Track mode and I feel every pebble on the road. The car really is awesome.
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Old 06-01-2016, 08:15 PM   #247
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And for everyone claiming they are glad they have a rare car? Good for you. 2002 Camaros are pretty rare also.
My 2004 GTO is quite rare. Do I win?
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Old 06-01-2016, 08:27 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by SuperSound View Post
A PRICE CONSCIOUS buyer would immediately discount the Camaro because it costs more. PRICE CONSCIOUS buyers would simply pick the cheaper car in the category and be done, which isn't the Camaro. So if that's what you were trying to say I agree, but it didn't come out that way.

So no..no Ford salesman would make a pitch about V6 manliness or V6 is better than a T4 since he would purposely cut off his upsale push for the EB (which costs more but gets better MPG than the V6). And most buyers today do not discount the 4 cylinder. They see it as the economical choice (even though premium fuel being required usually offsets the MPG difference) over a V6. This is why Ford positioning the EB as mid tier was a real gamble, but their packaging of it and PR machine I think helped that pay off. Let's not forget the V6 in the Mustang was "purposely" downgraded on HP to make the EB seem more attractive.

Now a buyer looking for leather or other features would have a tougher decision since both the EB Premium and 2LT are very comparably matched. There's about a $600 difference in price (EB being cheaper) outside of engine power. That where the differences start to become an issue to me. Ford has the power advantage and factory HIDs at that point, where as you have to add the LGX and RS package to match the EB Premium. It's these "optioned" cars in the LT that are over priced IMO. Again...bad packaging.
Thank you for agreeing that the price conscious buyer will discount the Camaro. Think that may be why the Mustang is outselling it?

And, You are wrong about the T4 vs Ford V6. Ever been in sales? I imagine not. The Ford salesman can - and does - say their V6 is better than the GM T4 and then says the EB T4 is better than their own V6. I've heard it myself.

It's called upselling and a good salesman can do it very convincingly. There is a reason there are more base Mustangs sold than Camaros. And the Ford V6 vs the GM T4 is one selling point in the Ford Sales Guide used by their sales staff.

And the EB T4 vs GM's V6 discounts cylinder numbers over efficient and economical power and torque.

Regards.
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Old 06-01-2016, 08:29 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Posaune View Post
IMHO, this slide is the most telling. Camaro with a long term downward trend with Mustang and Challenger on long term upward trends.
Exactly. Here we go again. Just like the 4th gen.. great performance car, but terrible sales. Ugh.
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Old 06-01-2016, 08:33 PM   #250
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Well if price is truly the cause of this trend, I can't see it getting any better with the MY '17 price increase. Unless they have some big incentives coming.
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Old 06-01-2016, 08:36 PM   #251
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0% financing through GMAC?
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Old 06-01-2016, 08:40 PM   #252
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Yikes. Not good. On a related note, I saw my first 6th gen on the road today, and while nice looking, it doesn't have the presence of the 5th. It just didn't stand out. Between that, the price increase, reduction in rear seat and trunk space, and the QC issues, I think a lot of people are crossing it off their list. Unfortunately I think that includes me.
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