[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by IOMike

Lol. Well, you aren't hiding behind a false screen name, that's for sure.

You Mustang boys sure a sensitive crowd. Sorry dude, you don't have to admit it but the Ford team definitely was looking at the Camaro for the 2018 refresh. They had to do a lot, they got caught with their pants down when the Camaro came out. Sure they had good sales, they discounted the thing from day 1. Mustang6g is full of people bragging how cheap they got their mustang (and laughing when the Camaro saw discounts...Weird). But every reviewer bashed the Mustangs performance in both acceleration and handling. It lost to the 5th gen for crying out loud. The 2015-2017 Mustang is a performance lame duck. Hopefully they save face with the new one.


Ford has been pretty agressive with copying other manufactures style. Look at the Explorer, Fusion, Continental and MKZ. Shameless I say.

so Ford while heavily outselling the Camaro with an inferior performing product felt the needed to copy one of the aspects that most seem to feel is a Camaro weak spot? that right? surprised Ford didnt shrink the trunk too while they were stealing those gems of Camaro design.

at least Mustang Fanboy comes right out and declares what he is.

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

so Ford while heavily outselling the Camaro with an inferior performing product felt the needed to copy one of the aspects that most seem to feel is a Camaro weak spot? that right? surprised Ford didnt shrink the trunk too while they were stealing those gems of Camaro design.

at least Mustang Fanboy comes right out and declares what he is.

Mustang sold better because there cheaper not better. Most people who buy, cost is the biggest factor. Ford has discounted the Mustang since day one. Nothing wrong with the formula, but rarely will you see a expensive car out sell a cheaper car in the same market.

[crysalis_01]

Originally Posted by 13vertss/r's

Mustang sold better because they're cheaper not better. (For) most people who buy, cost is the biggest factor. Ford has discounted the Mustang since day one. Nothing wrong with the formula, but rarely will you see a expensive car out sell a cheaper car in the same market.

We enthusiasts are outliers. These manufacturers build these cars, above all, to make profits, out performing every competitor is not necessary if you can appeal to "the masses".

Ford has apparently done this better than GM in this segment. Every enthusiast wants their choice to be "the best", while every manufacturer wants their product to make them the best ROI, whatever they entails.

[redcoats1976]

Originally Posted by SomeGeoffGuy

It is crazy since this car is the best Camaro EVER. I think they just need to work harder to get people out of their 5th gens.

-Geoff

i love my 5th gen,interior is a little roomier and i dont sit quite as low to the ground in it.plus if i traded it i would have to pay 1600 bucks to avoid the 4 cylinder turbo.before you think im hating on the 4 i drove one and it was pretty peppy,just dont want the turbo,wastegate,etc. as extra maintenance items when the car gets older.if they made the 6 a no cost option it might be more attractive to me.or have the 6 as the base engine and pump up the boost/upgrade the internals on the 4 cylinder,make it produce 375 HP or so and slot it between the 6 and 8 as ford has done.i will admit sight lines are better on the gen 6 and handling is better,but not by enough to cause me to trade in a two year old car.

[activepat]

This is my first Camaro ever. I had a 2000, 2003, 2004, 2011, 2013 and a 2015 Mustang GT. When I test drove the new SS I really wasn't doing anymore than screwing around on a Sunday morning since the wife was busy. I traded on the spot and the GT had 4500 miles on it.

Sales numbers don't matter to me at all. The car, hands down, is a better performer. I will say however the Gen 5 was a turd compared to the S550.

[BigRedViking]

In ten years when I have about 100k on the odometer I will still be happy with my car. Won't buy a Stang, or Challenger, and I'm 6'6" over 200. Greatest car of all time!

[Doc]

I think there are several factors at work to explain the decline. #1 is the economy and the cost of these new cars. This affects the entire segment, and it's not just the monthly car payment, it's also the insurance payment that's a factor. #2 I believe is driving conditions and opportunity. There are so many more cars on the road now, that it's nearly impossible to use the performance of a Camaro or other similar models. Unless you go to the track (or even have one near you to go to), good luck being able to use what your car can do.

#3 I think (at least in the Camaro's case) is styling and function. GM chose to make the Camaro a track car that you can drive on the street, which is fine for those who like that, but that's clearly not the majority of the market. They want sporty looks and performance but not at the cost of interior and/or trunk space. Take away or limit those two 'wants' and that starts to eliminate large segments of the customer base. At that point, it better have stunning looks and performance. Camaro has the performance, but (and I'm a Camaro fan) unfortunately the looks, while good, are not really stunning or great. So now that you've reduced the desirability of 3 of the 4 things that attract buyers, you only have one thing left; price. If that's also undesirable, then you have a problem, and it will show in sales. And that's where we are with the gen 6 Camaro.

GM needs to decide who they want to win over; the journalists/press, who are rapidly becoming irrelevant in the eyes of the public, or the customers. If they want to win the press, just keep going the way they're going; increasing the performance and track numbers, and having to raise the price accordingly. If they want to win the customers, go back to the drawing board, and design a great Camaro for them; not the press or the track. A great Camaro for the customer has great looks, a comfortable interior with good visibility, a clearly usable trunk, reasonable performance and a reasonable price. The press will lament how that Camaro 'isn't what it used to be' bla bla, but the customers will buy it because it meets their needs, not the press's.

They have to decide soon, because the length of time it takes to make a model change, means the Camaro may or may not survive if they get it wrong the next time. Keep the lettered models (SS, ZL1, etc) and make a base non-lettered model that you can get out-the-door for under $26k. Between the price and the moderate performance, the insurance for that model will be much less as well. This will make it affordable, and much more likely to be considered by the customers. It's clear by the downward sales trend of the last few years, that too many have turned away because it's too much, for too little of what they want and will actually use.

[IOMike]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

so Ford while heavily outselling the Camaro with an inferior performing product felt the needed to copy one of the aspects that most seem to feel is a Camaro weak spot? that right? surprised Ford didnt shrink the trunk too while they were stealing those gems of Camaro design.

at least Mustang Fanboy comes right out and declares what he is.

Sounds about right. And I did say the Mustang is a nice car and that they addressed the weak spots. You're the Mustang owner er hanging out on a Camaro forum letting everyone know you think the Mustang is better. Plenty of that over at Mustang6g too.

Like I said. Sensitive group. I assume it's an age thing.

Funny how sales are the most important thing to Mustang "enthusiasts". I'd have thought performance was the most important thing to an enthusiast, practicality to regular buyers and sales to the manufacture. Tell me, as an enthusiast, why is it so important to have the better selling car? Validation?

[BigRedViking]

That car has great lines. I'm quoting someone, and I can verify that with all the stares I get from hot girls.

[activepat]

Originally Posted by IOMike

Funny how sales are the most important thing to Mustang "enthusiasts". I'd have thought performance was the most important thing to an enthusiast, practicality to regular buyers and sales to the manufacture. Tell me, as an enthusiast, why is it so important to have the better selling car? Validation?

Agreed. I would rather have the better performer than one that is on every street corner. In Florida most of the new Mustangs you see are rental cars. I guess if that validates them being better, so be it.

[Zodiac]

Originally Posted by IOMike

Sounds about right. And I did say the Mustang is a nice car and that they addressed the weak spots. You're the Mustang owner er hanging out on a Camaro forum letting everyone know you think the Mustang is better. Plenty of that over at Mustang6g too.

Like I said. Sensitive group. I assume it's an age thing.

Funny how sales are the most important thing to Mustang "enthusiasts". I'd have thought performance was the most important thing to an enthusiast, practicality to regular buyers and sales to the manufacture. Tell me, as an enthusiast, why is it so important to have the better selling car? Validation?

I don't care about sales. I just don't want to see either model going away due to poor sales. Competition breeds better cars. Remember the Mustangs during the years of no competition?

Both sides of the forums have their fair share. I don't remember it being like this the last couple of generations.

If only GM didn't kill Pontiac, then maybe we'd have a badass Firebird/Trans Am to add into the mix. Would have been nice to see a new WS6 and have an SS sedan that actually looked nearly as good as the Holden variant. The SS sedan is nice but it's styling is too bland.

Originally Posted by activepat

Agreed. I would rather have the better performer than one that is on every street corner. In Florida most of the new Mustangs you see are rental cars. I guess if that validates them being better, so be it.

I agree there are a bunch of rental Mustangs, there are a bunch of Camaro rental cars as well. If you drive on any of the major highways around RDU airport up here you will see a bunch of rental Camaros. I could only assume it will be the same anywhere else near major airports.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by IOMike

Sounds about right. And I did say the Mustang is a nice car and that they addressed the weak spots. You're the Mustang owner er hanging out on a Camaro forum letting everyone know you think the Mustang is better. Plenty of that over at Mustang6g too.

Like I said. Sensitive group. I assume it's an age thing.

Funny how sales are the most important thing to Mustang "enthusiasts". I'd have thought performance was the most important thing to an enthusiast, practicality to regular buyers and sales to the manufacture. Tell me, as an enthusiast, why is it so important to have the better selling car? Validation?

yeah I currently own a Mustang because when i purchased... it was the better car for what I intended to do as well as more aesthetically pleasing. I have owned F and A body Chevy's over the years so paint me as a Ford fanboy if you like i dont care.

I said the Camaro was the better performer and if I were buying new today I would pick the Camaro, however if next year the mustang performance matches cloesely to the camaro I would choose the mustang because I feel its the better looking/more user friendly of the 2 with a larger aftermarket and I like to mod my cars.

I frequent M6G also and have no problem speaking my mind about the Mustangs short comings there...i've been muzzled for it.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by 13vertss/r's

Mustang sold better because there cheaper not better. Most people who buy, cost is the biggest factor. Ford has discounted the Mustang since day one. Nothing wrong with the formula, but rarely will you see a expensive car out sell a cheaper car in the same market.

Somewhat over simplified. The cheaper product does not win sales because it's cheaper. It also has to meet customer requirements or no one will buy it regardless of how cheap it is.

Agree the lower price point is in the equation, but it's far from the only reason it has sold so well.

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

We enthusiasts are outliers. These manufacturers build these cars, above all, to make profits, out performing every competitor is not necessary if you can appeal to "the masses".

Ford has apparently done this better than GM in this segment. Every enthusiast wants their choice to be "the best", while every manufacturer wants their product to make them the best ROI, whatever they entails.

If it isn't profitable, GM, a publicly held company, will be compelled to take the capital required and put it into an SUV/CUV (which Cadillac is desperate for right now). So it's profitable when the capital investment is paid for, but putting 100s of millions in again for a Gen7 vs. another vehicle segment where there is profit to be made will be the question.

And by the way, GM is a learning company so it isn't that simple. Next time they will have learned the lessons as to why it didn't sell as well as it could have and corrected it.

Originally Posted by Doc

I think there are several factors at work to explain the decline. #1 is the economy and the cost of these new cars. This affects the entire segment, and it's not just the monthly car payment, it's also the insurance payment that's a factor. #2 I believe is driving conditions and opportunity. There are so many more cars on the road now, that it's nearly impossible to use the performance of a Camaro or other similar models. Unless you go to the track (or even have one near you to go to), good luck being able to use what your car can do.

#3 I think (at least in the Camaro's case) is styling and function. GM chose to make the Camaro a track car that you can drive on the street, which is fine for those who like that, but that's clearly not the majority of the market. They want sporty looks and performance but not at the cost of interior and/or trunk space. Take away or limit those two 'wants' and that starts to eliminate large segments of the customer base. At that point, it better have stunning looks and performance. Camaro has the performance, but (and I'm a Camaro fan) unfortunately the looks, while good, are not really stunning or great. So now that you've reduced the desirability of 3 of the 4 things that attract buyers, you only have one thing left; price. If that's also undesirable, then you have a problem, and it will show in sales. And that's where we are with the gen 6 Camaro.

GM needs to decide who they want to win over; the journalists/press, who are rapidly becoming irrelevant in the eyes of the public, or the customers. If they want to win the press, just keep going the way they're going; increasing the performance and track numbers, and having to raise the price accordingly. If they want to win the customers, go back to the drawing board, and design a great Camaro for them; not the press or the track. A great Camaro for the customer has great looks, a comfortable interior with good visibility, a clearly usable trunk, reasonable performance and a reasonable price. The press will lament how that Camaro 'isn't what it used to be' bla bla, but the customers will buy it because it meets their needs, not the press's.

They have to decide soon, because the length of time it takes to make a model change, means the Camaro may or may not survive if they get it wrong the next time. Keep the lettered models (SS, ZL1, etc) and make a base non-lettered model that you can get out-the-door for under $26k. Between the price and the moderate performance, the insurance for that model will be much less as well. This will make it affordable, and much more likely to be considered by the customers. It's clear by the downward sales trend of the last few years, that too many have turned away because it's too much, for too little of what they want and will actually use.

Hi Doc!

Originally Posted by Zodiac

If only GM didn't kill Pontiac, then maybe we'd have a badass Firebird/Trans Am to add into the mix. Would have been nice to see a new WS6 and have an SS sedan that actually looked nearly as good as the Holden variant. The SS sedan is nice but it's styling is too bland.

To have a differentiated Pontiac version would simply have taken even more capital and would have watered down Chevrolet sales even further than what they are today.

It's a difficult balance. I.e. A GMC Terrain build off the same architecture as the Equinox is worth the extra expense in a market that can't get enough SUVs. Building another sport coupe in a limited and shrinking market not so much.

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Somewhat over simplified. The cheaper product does not win sales because it's cheaper. It also has to meet customer requirements or no one will buy it regardless of how cheap it is.

Agree the lower price point is in the equation, but it's far from the only reason it has sold so well.

If people are shopping both cars, price for the most will be the deciding factor. Most just see hp is close, so feel the Mustang is better because it's cheaper. Most don't know all the extras the Camaro has over the Mustang, thus can't justify the increase. Few know the Camaro comes with Brembos, high performance tires, lighter, much more torque, Tremec tranny, drive modes, bigger info screen, rev match, NPP option, and Magride option. Heck the Mustang doesn't even have struts for the hood. All these add up, but many dont see these. That is what I was getting at.