Headers vs Headers

[MarylandSpeed]

I have said it before, and I will say it again. There is something about headers that brings out the cheapness in people unlike any other part. You read people signs, and they have $1300 Corsa Exhausts, and $400 CAI intakes, and then when it comes to headers, they are at Aldi's buying dollar tortilla chips.

In terms of what's the difference?

Any complete header set under $1000 made of 304 Stainless is made overseas plain and simple. 99% of the time, they are made with stolen bend data for a premium header.

We can get into global economics all you want, but there is a very different business structure between the two.

If you are Stainless Works or Kooks, you have to buy the tooling to make the parts. A CNC bender costs 6 figures. Now buy 6 or 7..just to make exhaust. Now hire American's to run them. Then weld them with highly skilled welders (always in high demand in the US). Then provide US support, and sponsor car shows, and do everything the right way. When Johnny wants that weird 1 5/8" stepped to 1 3/4" header for his circle track car, you make it.

Then you have the competing business model, which is to steel someone's design and spit them out between runs of Walmart Lawn furniture using dollar an hour labor somewhere in Shanghai. Then you dump it on ebay, or wait for some opportunistic American to come up to your booth at Sema and agree to sell it. Also, the overseas stuff is a complete crap shoot..even in the same "brand". They generally give the work to whatever factory is cheapest, so headers have huge variances from run to run within the same brand.

But again..it is up to the customer what they want to support.

I can tell you a Kooks header has normally...over the ebay stuff..

- Primaries made of one piece whenever possible. Many overseas headers I have seen have pieces of pipe welded together to make one primary. I have also seen ovaled pipe from the inferior machinery.

- Perfectly smooth, hand ported primaries inside the header flange. Knock offs have this-



- Kooks uses the lightest gauge metal to get the job done. This makes for a lighter header, and more clearance. You will see the overseas headers us near half in thick flanges because everything else they use warps. You also see very thick pipe because the quality of metal they use is lower and will tear in the bender otherwise. Things people say are benefits going on about heave gauge, and thick flanges are really cover ups for inferior materials.

- With Kooks you get premium Torca clamps, bolts, and made in the US Caspers O2 extensions. I have not seen a overseas header where the hardware was not trash out the box, and O2 extensions were not 25 cent Chinese deals.

- Support. If you have an issue, you can call Kooks, and they can go talk to the guy who made the header, and the guy who designed it. Have an issue with a Chinese header, at best, they will say throw it in the trash and refund your money. At worst, you are screwed. People always undervalue support until they need it.

As a customer, you can spend your money how you want. Keep in mind however, American made 304 stainless headers have always cost a little more than $1000 at best. There are 4-5 companies doing it in that price range, and if one could drop their price and steal market, it would happen. However the cost structure of doing business that way does not allow it. It is completely different than taking someone elses design and sending it to Chinese contract manufacturer. My take on the overseas headers is aside from more money in your pocket, there really is not too much to feel good about when you think of how the savings got there.

[8balldeluxe]

I like Aldi's buck a bag tortilla chips, they taste better than 4 dollar Tostitos and the same amount, the only difference is one has more salt to make them more appealing. Funny thing is about them tortilla chips is they all taste the same with some jalapeño dip. ��

And I still have 3 bucks left in my pocket.

Back to headers......

[rontammy0]

Originally Posted by 8balldeluxe

I like Aldi's buck a bag tortilla chips, they taste better than 4 dollar Tostitos and the same amount, the only difference is one has more salt to make them more appealing. Funny thing is about them tortilla chips is they all taste the same with some jalapeño dip. ��

And I still have 3 bucks left in my pocket.

Back to headers......

Its not just headers being built worldwide....people will buy what they want when looking out for number 1. With the stupid price of most things now...including headers people are going to try and get the best price they can. Pass the dip....

[pyroguy]

For someone who is not ever planning on selling their Camaro, I'd rather buy headers once and never have to worry about it again. Kooks were my preferred brand and Maryland Speed was my choice supplier. I looked at ARH and Stainless Works as well and I guess the reason I went with Kooks over these other two was exactly what was said above, they're at car shows supporting their products. I didn't see ARH or Stainless Works at any of the shows in my area where I did see Kooks. I was able to talk with them and get some support right before installing my headers that made my installation very straight forward. Top notch company with top notch individuals. I'd buy from them again even though they're a little more expensive.

[cc-rider]

Originally Posted by MarylandSpeed

I have said it before, and I will say it again. There is something about headers that brings out the cheapness in people unlike any other part. You read people signs, and they have $1300 Corsa Exhausts, and $400 CAI intakes, and then when it comes to headers, they are at Aldi's buying dollar tortilla chips.

In terms of what's the difference?

Any complete header set under $1000 made of 304 Stainless is made overseas plain and simple. 99% of the time, they are made with stolen bend data for a premium header.

We can get into global economics all you want, but there is a very different business structure between the two.

If you are Stainless Works or Kooks, you have to buy the tooling to make the parts. A CNC bender costs 6 figures. Now buy 6 or 7..just to make exhaust. Now hire American's to run them. Then weld them with highly skilled welders (always in high demand in the US). Then provide US support, and sponsor car shows, and do everything the right way. When Johnny wants that weird 1 5/8" stepped to 1 3/4" header for his circle track car, you make it.

Then you have the competing business model, which is to steel someone's design and spit them out between runs of Walmart Lawn furniture using dollar an hour labor somewhere in Shanghai. Then you dump it on ebay, or wait for some opportunistic American to come up to your booth at Sema and agree to sell it. Also, the overseas stuff is a complete crap shoot..even in the same "brand". They generally give the work to whatever factory is cheapest, so headers have huge variances from run to run within the same brand.

But again..it is up to the customer what they want to support.

I can tell you a Kooks header has normally...over the ebay stuff..

- Primaries made of one piece whenever possible. Many overseas headers I have seen have pieces of pipe welded together to make one primary. I have also seen ovaled pipe from the inferior machinery.

- Perfectly smooth, hand ported primaries inside the header flange. Knock offs have this-



- Kooks uses the lightest gauge metal to get the job done. This makes for a lighter header, and more clearance. You will see the overseas headers us near half in thick flanges because everything else they use warps. You also see very thick pipe because the quality of metal they use is lower and will tear in the bender otherwise. Things people say are benefits going on about heave gauge, and thick flanges are really cover ups for inferior materials.

- With Kooks you get premium Torca clamps, bolts, and made in the US Caspers O2 extensions. I have not seen a overseas header where the hardware was not trash out the box, and O2 extensions were not 25 cent Chinese deals.

- Support. If you have an issue, you can call Kooks, and they can go talk to the guy who made the header, and the guy who designed it. Have an issue with a Chinese header, at best, they will say throw it in the trash and refund your money. At worst, you are screwed. People always undervalue support until they need it.

As a customer, you can spend your money how you want. Keep in mind however, American made 304 stainless headers have always cost a little more than $1000 at best. There are 4-5 companies doing it in that price range, and if one could drop their price and steal market, it would happen. However the cost structure of doing business that way does not allow it. It is completely different than taking someone elses design and sending it to Chinese contract manufacturer. My take on the overseas headers is aside from more money in your pocket, there really is not too much to feel good about when you think of how the savings got there.

You make a good point about American made. But that's been said a thousand times and everyone knows it. And no doubt Kooks headers are great, and a wonderful option if someone wants to pay the extra 200% for them than they otherwise would have to for the same result.

The competition is getting better. You can probably stop posting those pictures of the worst header you have ever seen come through your shop as the example of Chinese made headers. Try posting some pics of Speed Engineering, Texas Speed, Stainless Power and other headers as the representative. But I suppose you won't do that....it doesn't help support your spin on it.

[gnturboray]

LG ftw!

[Olddudesrule]

Originally Posted by 8balldeluxe

I like Aldi's buck a bag tortilla chips, they taste better than 4 dollar Tostitos and the same amount, the only difference is one has more salt to make them more appealing. Funny thing is about them tortilla chips is they all taste the same with some jalapeño dip. ��

And I still have 3 bucks left in my pocket.

Back to headers......

My initial response to a post like this is "you're missing the point", but I know that's not true, you are just giving your opinion on how you choose to spend your hard earned money. I get that, have to appreciate it. That said, if anyone truly believes that the future of continuing to disregard American made products, especially when they are quality made products, is beneficial in the long run, well then you deserve to have to sift through Chinese/Taiwanesse/Overseas junk on the purchases you make. Like many of you, I've been around long enough to have purchased inferior crap just save a few bucks. It sucks, wastes my time and my money in the long run.

If I truly believed one header costing $400 was exactly as good as another costing $1000, I would buy the cheaper one all day long........I don't.

[8balldeluxe]

Your post is funny sir...but as I stated in my original post that started this thread is I know the difference in buying American made, see post 1 please. I've broken many a stick on that horse trying to kill same said horse.

Below is from Motor Trend magazine published 2/18/15

The 2015 Chevrolet Camaro sports the most North American content of any modern two-door muscle car, with 65 percent of its content sourced from the U.S. or Canada. As with previous generations of the Camaro (and Firebird), the current car is built in Canada. Engines come from the U.S. or Mexico, and transmissions are sourced from the U.S., Mexico, or Japan.

As I sift thru my pockets looking for my keys to start my "junk", I'm sure happy with the purchase I have made. How about you?

[8balldeluxe]

BTW I was actually referring too the chips.

[GMTool]

Buy Made in USA stuff, support your local country. If you don't agree, no surprise, nothing new. The shape of our country is proof. But it's a good feeling to know that Americans do stick up for America and each other when times get tough. When catastrophic events happen, we all pull together. But in the mean time its dog eat dog.

[pyroguy]

Originally Posted by GMTool

Buy Made in USA stuff, support your local country. If you don't agree, no surprise, nothing new. The shape of our country is proof. But it's a good feeling to know that Americans do stick up for America and each other when times get tough. When catastrophic events happen, we all pull together. But in the mean time its dog eat dog.

[SoChrisB]

Not all 304 stainless is the same, either. 304L is the best, IMO.

[MarylandSpeed]

The problem is...

If you said company "X" is going to steal an American companies designs, make cheap Asian knock offs, then dump them at a 3rd the price through companies not one has ever heard of...pretty much anybody would say that is terrible, and not worth supporting.

Until it means you get headers for a 3rd the price?

I exclude Stainless Power from the conversation because that is something Stainless Works decided to do and controls. If they feel it helps their brand..I support it.

Originally Posted by cc-rider

You make a good point about American made. But that's been said a thousand times and everyone knows it. And no doubt Kooks headers are great, and a wonderful option if someone wants to pay the extra 200% for them than they otherwise would have to for the same result.

The competition is getting better. You can probably stop posting those pictures of the worst header you have ever seen come through your shop as the example of Chinese made headers. Try posting some pics of Speed Engineering, Texas Speed, Stainless Power and other headers as the representative. But I suppose you won't do that....it doesn't help support your spin on it.

[rontammy0]

Originally Posted by SoChrisB

Not all 304 stainless is the same, either. 304L is the best, IMO.

304 l is popular in food grade applications. Virtually no rust on the welds because it'slower in carbon then 304. We are talking headers...not food grade applications so 304 is the most common grade used. They weld the same. ...both react to purging exactly the same. 304 stainless headers are very durable.