Do I need a lawyer?

[BreakingBad]

I need the community's advise on this one. Long read.

So, I have owned a 2012 Camaro (2LR/RS) so I am familiar with the 5th gen Camaros, generally speaking. I traded up to a 2015 Charger, had ongoing transmission issues and saw a decent deal on a used 2015 Camaro 2SS/RS at an out-of-state dealership. I posted about this in another area, but I wanted to consolidate these questions and try to get some direction here.

First and foremost, I bought the car used understanding there were some existing issues - cosmetic defects (many of which a good detail would get rid of), wheel abrasions, a few other things. I went over much of what I was able to see with the salesman. The driver's side tail-light wasn't working correctly. Manager of used cars said it was just a bulb, get it replaced under warranty. Salesman told me (and showed me) clean carfax, insisted no accidents (my BIGGEST concern), but embellished the condition of the rotors/brakes/tires (learned this after having independent chevy dealership inspect), and a few other not so very good business / sales practices I noticed. I should've probably walked on this, but the SS drew me in and I figured a quick trip to the dealer to fix some small issues plus a good detail wouldn't be too big of a deal.

After having the local Chevy dealer inspect the car, my front tires weren't replaced or at "75%" as per what the salesman told me, but rather 5/32 and 3/32. The rotors were cut, new pads on the front, 75%+ or more on rear pads. They lied about the tires. They lied about the 'bulb' too.

The Chevy dealership I am working with near me has said they believe the car was in an unreported accident because the tail-light issue wasn't a bulb issue, it was the ENTIRELY WRONG ASSEMBLY. Not only that there are some marks above the taillight and below the painted part of the bumper that indicate an accident, but only visible after a good wash. Had to get GM District Manager approval to put in the factory. After I had a chance to 2-bucket wash the car very well, the bumper's paint is starting to bubble (temps have started to warm up) and in one area above the license plate starting to 'peel' off- it looks like the entire bumper was either replaced or repainted, possibly with aftermarket parts.

From my understanding and from what the chevy dealer said, this is a no-brainer and it should have been caught during their 'point-by-point' inspection they said they did and it should've been information relayed to me during the sale. Being this wasn't done (which would again have been caught during a basic inspection of the car) the salesman bordered (and may have committed) fraud by selling me a car that now has diminished value because of what looks to be an accident. From what I've read this affects resale value, sometimes a lot. It seems like at this point I might need to consider having the dealership buy it back but as I understand it, sometimes you need a lawyer to get involved before they will.

As-Is means absolutely nothing when the salesman lies and the dealership did not conduct a proper inspection and missed two MAJOR indications the car was in an unreported accident - the entirely wrong tail-light assembly and a poorly repainted bumper (keep in mind, i scoped this car out at 9PM while it was raining, so it was tough to see all the issues with the paint until I had time [and decent weather] to do a hand wash). You can't make a customer sign an as-is, lie about a bunch of stuff on the car I couldn't confirm (IE, i didn't have a tread measuring tool, didn't have a Chevy/GM mechanic with me to tell me the tail light was non-factory, etc.) then expect it to hold up in court. The As-Is part assumes that the dealership is being truthful in the sale.

Where do I go from here? I can get into more specifics, but my question at this point is, do I really have a case for the dealer to do a buy back? I believe that I do despite signing as-is paperwork because there were things not disclosed to me during the sale, which is deceptive and by definition fraud being it affects the value of my car (unreported accident). If I do have a case, my next concern is - I traded my charger and they gave me X amount for the trade - because they basically sold me what amounts to a Lemon, I feel I should have had the chance then to trade or sell my Charger for a better price - who's to say I couldn't have got a private sale for 2-3k more than what they offered me in the trade? Factor in inspection on the Camaro, repeated trips to dealership - in all honesty I think the dealership should buy-back the car and on top throw me a couple grand for my original trade being I never had the opportunity to get a better offer or walk since that was my plan if the car was in an accident.

None of this would be a concern if the unreported accident didn't happen. I was OK with the cosmetic condition because again a good paint correction/wet sand/clay bar + dr colorchip would have taken care of most of the issues, and I planned on getting new wheels and what not anyway. I lost a TON of value in my car because the dealership lied, and the excuse of 'it wasn't on the carfax' to me is BS because Chevy said any mechanic worth their salt would have caught the numerous issues and put 2 and 2 together and it should've been disclosed at time of sale.

Any suggestions C5 crew?

[KJZ28]

That sounds like a horrible experience, wish I had advice for you. I like your signature by the way.

[BreakingBad]

Originally Posted by KJZ28

That sounds like a horrible experience, wish I had advice for you. I like your signature by the way.

Thanks man! Love Ron Paul.

My other thought is to take it back to Chevy and have them repair the bumper as if the "factory paint" was failing. Obviously it looks like it was repainted poorly, but I guess that is a last resort if the dealership pushes me to get a lawyer. I may actually try to look up a consumer protection lawyer and see if there are free consults because I have a feeling this might get messy.

[MrChrisLS3]

Well, this sucks, I feel for ya.

But I really don't think you have anything to work with.

Unless they falsified the Carfax, and you can prove that, you can't get them on lying about accident status. Even though a Chevy tech said it was obvious, it's still here say at this point. A dealer can't 'disclose' what they don't know, and you have to prove that they 'knew'.

Then there is the fact that you have right to independent pre-purchase inspection at the shop of your choice. So, everything discovered post purchase, could have been discovered pre purchase. Unfortunately, you chose not to take advantage of this opportunity. Sorry to say.

Finally, I understand that you bought the car out of state, which means that you had to travel to get the car, and of course, this means that you had to arrange the time. It is unfortunate the time you chose experienced inclement weather, however, you still had the opportunity to inspect the car yourself. You had the opportunity to see that the tires were not as advertised, among other things.

Then on your trade. Well, you agreed to the price they gave you. Of course you may have gotten more in private sale, that's pretty much common knowledge that trade in value is at best wholesale value. The only real advantages to trading are to reduce financed amount, reduce sales tax liability, and for simplicity, as listing a car for sale takes time and putting up with calls at all hours and tire kickers. But the bottom line is they offered you a price and you agreed to it.

I'm certainly not trying to be jerk a here, but the fact of the matter is that when buying a used car, burden of diligence is on the buyer. It is always an "as is" purchase. The only time this is not true is when it involves non-disclosure, which is the point you are trying to make. However, at this point, the burden of proof is on you. If you can prove that the dealer knew the car was in accident, and that you were denied the opportunity of a quality pre-purchase inspection, you may have a case. However, you can certainly have a consultation with an attorney, however, I feel they will tell you same thing I just did.

[BreakingBad]

Well I plan on consulting with a lawyer regardless.

Putting aside the idea of pushing the dealer for a buy-back, it's evident and clear as day the paint is now bubbling and peeling off the bumper - there is no way to 'catch' that at pre-purchase inspection as the problem just started happening.

That being said, I could push the local chevy dealer and see if they will address the bumper/paint issue under factory warranty. If the carfax is clean, which it is, just as you say I have no 'leg' to stand on when it comes to saying the dealer 'knew' it was in an accident, seems to me the Chevy dealer should cover it under factory warranty and replace/paint a new bumper. If they try to say 'no, this was aftermarket work, can't fix under warranty' then I take that back to original dealer and negotiate because the problem stemmed with them.

I guess a lawyer though is the only one who can look at the entire situation and gauge whether or not I have the leverage to entice the dealer to buy the car back or get them to pay for any necessary repairs, in full. Otherwise it's simply whether or not the manager is willing to work with me to make things right.

[ChibiBlackSheep]

You can consult the lawyer, but you might not have a case anywhere.

Did you ever ask to get the car inspected by a different mechanic prior to purchase?

[MrChrisLS3]

Originally Posted by BreakingBad

Well I plan on consulting with a lawyer regardless.

Putting aside the idea of pushing the dealer for a buy-back, it's evident and clear as day the paint is now bubbling and peeling off the bumper - there is no way to 'catch' that at pre-purchase inspection as the problem just started happening.

That being said, I could push the local chevy dealer and see if they will address the bumper/paint issue under factory warranty. If the carfax is clean, which it is, just as you say I have no 'leg' to stand on when it comes to saying the dealer 'knew' it was in an accident, seems to me the Chevy dealer should cover it under factory warranty and replace/paint a new bumper. If they try to say 'no, this was aftermarket work, can't fix under warranty' then I take that back to original dealer and negotiate because the problem stemmed with them.

I guess a lawyer though is the only one who can look at the entire situation and gauge whether or not I have the leverage to entice the dealer to buy the car back or get them to pay for any necessary repairs, in full. Otherwise it's simply whether or not the manager is willing to work with me to make things right.

Too many variables to asses liability. What if the previous owner backed into something, carried a high deductible and didn't claim it. Replaced the bumper out of pocket? GM could say it's aftermarket, and the selling dealer could say they didn't know. Now, if you found evidence that the selling dealer replaced/repainted the bumper, that would be different. However, since you say it started bubbling after you bought the car, either one can say you might have bumped something and caused the issue.

[sbubbaklein]

Sounds like most of the problems can be fixed on your car. Why waste the time and effort to try and litigate. It will upset you with the delays and runarounds that are in store for you. Your money can be better spent on some nice mods.
Chalk it up to experience and get back to enjoying your Camaro.

[Avenging Orange]

You're wasting your time. YOU, not the dealer, signed on the 'as is' dotted line. YOU chose to basically impulse buy out of state. Again, not trying to burn you here. Just helpful advice. Never buy sight unseen. If there are flaws, have them fix them first and get it in writing before you sign anything. Lastly, welcome to the world of used car buying.

[69 SS 350 5 Speed]

The issue of an unreported accident goes back to the person that sold or traded the car to the dealer. The law in every state requires the seller of a motor vehicle to disclose any material fact (effecting value). Failure to disclose the accident is a misdemeanor in most states and there are legal remedies. You have to start with the selling dealer and work your way back. If the dealer was aware of the damage and failed to disclose it to you, they are on the hook.

AS-IS sales do not exclude disclosing prior damage as some dealers like to think.

[MrChrisLS3]

Originally Posted by sbubbaklein

Sounds like most of the problems can be fixed on your car. Why waste the time and effort to try and litigate. It will upset you with the delays and runarounds that are in store for you. Your money can be better spent on some nice mods.
Chalk it up to experience and get back to enjoying your Camaro.

This is the best advice you're gonna get here.

[lawdog]

Unless the Dealer is an Idiot, they will never admit that they knew about a prior accident nor the issues. Its going to be a big waste of your time and your money unless you have the smoking gun that can box the dealer in the corner on the issues. They only have to disclose what they are aware of unless of course they are certifying the car, then in that circumstance they would have a professional responsibility to inspect it without negligence for issues based upon your reasonable expectation of purchasing a Certified Car. Thats my 2 cents.

What did we all learn here ? Never buy a car at Night and never buy a car in the rain.

As Is means As Is unless you have the evidence to show otherwise.

Now with all that said, you could sit down with the GM of the Dealer and like gentleman get him to agree that selling the car with some issues is not good for business if they want to see you in their service department, and or meet him halfay on the costs of a new bumper, paint and taillight assembly. Just a thought.

[Rock-It Man]

This story makes a great case for never buying a car, other than perhaps an antique, "as is".

Thankfully, in my state, "as is" does not exist. If a car cannot pass inspection, the seller has to either repair it or take it back. Period.

[BreakingBad]

I am well aware of what I should of done as far as 3rd party mechanic, bringing tire tread depth tool, etc. As they say, hindsight is 20/20. This will probably be my last used car purchase for the next decade, I plan on keeping this SS probably for 3-4 years, at which point I'll probably trade to something new. Thanks for the tips though.

That being said, I have escalated the issue to the used lot manager (was working with the GM prior). I have described the issues. After some back and forth, I pretty much asserted that the salesman lied (he did, about the tires and tail-light) and that they don't get carte blanche to lie about a bunch of stuff just to move a car then say 'NOPE YOU SIGNED IT AS IS!'

The GM of the lot offered a couple hundred, but that wouldn't even cover 2 tires installed. At this point with bubbling paint I said I will be satisfied if I can provide them a quote from Chevy for fixing the bumper, 2 new tires, an alignment and a key fob then a promise they will pay for it all. The used manager (after some debate) is receptive to this.

Ideally I forward the quote to him, he cuts me a check, I get the car fixed.