Tesla Going Out of Biness

[FenwickHockey65]

Does AutoPilot require the driver to be paying attention to the road at all? SuperCruise will start throwing a hissy fit once it notices your eyes aren't focused out the windshield.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

WOAH!

As I've beens saying for a while now.....this is all too quick. We are attempting to mimic human thinking (and the roadway systems we've come up with by our thinking) with a series of simple cameras, sensors, and algorithms. Without dedicated beacons or an advanced, shackled AI...it's going to take more than a few years to get this down!

The engineers aren't trying to mimic human thinking with self driving cars. Thats too difficult & completely unnecessary. A car mainly needs to see that its getting closer to something, then not hit it. While not easy, its a considerably simpler task than what we're doing as we drive.

The issue isn't the technology per se, its Tesla being arrogant. Instead of developing a working system then putting that into their cars they put the hardware in with half-developed software & call themselves innovators. No, it makes them assholes who use paying customers on public roads as vehicle testers.

Combining radar, lidar, and cameras can result in a very clear picture of whats going on. But you need to pair that with well designed software thats been rigorously tested before ever considering putting it on the road. Tesla didn't do that. They value being first over being safe, which is unforgivable when lives are at stake.

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Does AutoPilot require the driver to be paying attention to the road at all? SuperCruise will start throwing a hissy fit once it notices your eyes aren't focused out the windshield.

I don't believe so.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Does AutoPilot require the driver to be paying attention to the road at all? SuperCruise will start throwing a hissy fit once it notices your eyes aren't focused out the windshield.

Originally Posted by DGthe3

I don't believe so.

Me, either...at least if there is, it's minimal - I noticed the DIC started blinking just before it chose "a lane". But I haven't driven one, so it's very hard to say...Though, if I recall, there was a drive who did NOT pay attention while autopilot was engaged (shame on Tesla for the name of that system, by the way), and either got into a nasty accident, or got killed.

Originally Posted by DGthe3

The engineers aren't trying to mimic human thinking with self driving cars. Thats too difficult & completely unnecessary. A car mainly needs to see that its getting closer to something, then not hit it. While not easy, its a considerably simpler task than what we're doing as we drive.

I guess what I meant there was my interpretation of what went wrong...the car appeared to "chose a lane" that most closely appeared to be the way the navigation system wanted it to go. It just so happened that the "lane" was the divider stripes leading to the barrier.

This could have been because the camera didn't properly detect the lines on the road?

A human could have seen that wasn't a lane...a computer can't, unless it was programmed for that particular instance. And even then - it can only function based on the inputs it is provides...we can see a crappy-looking line on the road and still determine what it's supposed to mean.

I believe the programming these companies are putting into the cars are attempting to mimic human decision-making on the road. In this case, it failed.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Does AutoPilot require the driver to be paying attention to the road at all? SuperCruise will start throwing a hissy fit once it notices your eyes aren't focused out the windshield.

No. AutoPilot is essentially a better than usual Adaptive Cruise system. It requires that the driver maintain contact with the steering while or at lease touch it every few seconds. SuperCruise has a driver attention monitoring system that actually tracks where the driver’s eyes are looking in order to detect drowsiness or complete lack of attention. Two different approaches to Level 2 autonomy (there are 5 levels).

I drove one of the earlier releases of AutoPilot. It basically reads the lines on the road to determine where it needs to be. Just like any other adaptive cruise control. The big difference is it can change lanes by simply having the driver lightly push the turn signal stalk in the direction of the lane change. I had a number of times where the car couldn’t read the lines and tossed control back to me with little warning. Once was on a cloverleaf. A large cardboard box covered up part of one of the lines. Fun times.

The other thing about the car I drove. It was a P85D. Scary fast. Could probably take a ZL1. It was top of the line back then. Now they are up to P100D. I know that can take a ZL1. 0-60 is under 3.0 and it corners like there’s a vertical pole through the center.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Me, either...at least if there is, it's minimal - I noticed the DIC started blinking just before it chose "a lane". But I haven't driven one, so it's very hard to say...Though, if I recall, there was a drive who did NOT pay attention while autopilot was engaged (shame on Tesla for the name of that system, by the way), and either got into a nasty accident, or got killed.



I guess what I meant there was my interpretation of what went wrong...the car appeared to "chose a lane" that most closely appeared to be the way the navigation system wanted it to go. It just so happened that the "lane" was the divider stripes leading to the barrier.

This could have been because the camera didn't properly detect the lines on the road?

A human could have seen that wasn't a lane...a computer can't, unless it was programmed for that particular instance. And even then - it can only function based on the inputs it is provides...we can see a crappy-looking line on the road and still determine what it's supposed to mean.

I believe the programming these companies are putting into the cars are attempting to mimic human decision-making on the road. In this case, it failed.

My guess is that the camera was following the lane-lines & kept the car between them, just like its supposed to 99.99% of the time. But it didn't know to follow the right-hand markers when pulling off the highway (or follow the left if going straight). And they certainly didn't seem to understand that the plotted course was heading straight for a stationary object. All of this aught to be relatively straight forward to solve. None of it is beyond the technology currently available. But it might be beyond Tesla's Autopilot.

I've fiddled around with machine vision systems enough to know that they are capable of amazing accuracy, and incredible idiocity. The algorithms used by a system to recognize objects are so alien to how people think that I can't believe anyone in their right mind would program a vision system to drive a car at 70 mph.

[TimsZ28]

Understanding Semi-Autonomus is the key and yes Tesla was arrogant and didn't explain this to it's Customer. On the SAE scale of Atonomus both Tesla and the Cadillac CT6 are rated SAE Level 2. Semi-Autonomus and require the human to drive the car period. The features are assistance features that only take away the need for you to contiously perform them. No where in writing do they say you are not responsible to react to all emergencies or intervene when needed. Cadillac was very clear on this and that is what is needed as these systems are not at the level needed to react and respond to every situation out there.

It is sad when you know what most of the algorithms are built into these systems that Tesla calls it "Auto-pilot" and they are not very clear that the cars cannot safely drive for you. They can simply assist with acceleration, de-acceleration, and steering in most situations. The big key is ASSIST. They sure did not claim anything beyond that to be rated a level 2 of autonomy. Now explain that to Customer BEFORE they buy Tesla PLEASE!

[FenwickHockey65]

I'd agree with all the folks saying AutoPilot is a horrible name for this system. It essentially implies the car will drive itself under any circumstances.

SuperCruise is exactly what it sounds like, just an upgraded adaptive cruise control with steering input.

[nicktechla]

Originally Posted by TimsZ28

Understanding Semi-Autonomus is the key and yes Tesla was arrogant and didn't explain this to it's Customer. On the SAE scale of Atonomus both Tesla and the Cadillac CT6 are rated SAE Level 2. Semi-Autonomus and require the human to drive the car period. The features are assistance features that only take away the need for you to contiously perform them. No where in writing do they say you are not responsible to react to all emergencies or intervene when needed. Cadillac was very clear on this and that is what is needed as these systems are not at the level needed to react and respond to every situation out there.

It is sad when you know what most of the algorithms are built into these systems that Tesla calls it "Auto-pilot" and they are not very clear that the cars cannot safely drive for you. They can simply assist with acceleration, de-acceleration, and steering in most situations. The big key is ASSIST. They sure did not claim anything beyond that to be rated a level 2 of autonomy. Now explain that to Customer BEFORE they buy Tesla PLEASE!

I dunno, all my friends with Teslas got a pretty good explanation of how everything works when they picked up the car.

[DGthe3]

Didn't Tesla (ie, Elon) say when Autopilot was activated that your car could drive itself coast to coast or something along those lines? Then they backed off once people started getting into accidents. Of course, in the manual I'm sure it dictated exactly when & how to use it and what its limitations are. But not the big PR stuff that everyone actually pays attention to.

[90503]

I recall reading that the part-time, get ready to take over driving just in case type of system had already been proven to be the most dangerous....Either full time autonomy or full time driver....the in-between is the most problematic and unreliable....

I don't see how they can say self-driving cars overall will save lives, if you have to pay attention all the time to take over driving from part time in an emergency....Why not pay attention full time like you should in the first place and just drive the friggin' car?...

More lives will be lost to cater to the desire for laziness and self-indulgence provided by autonomous cars and their hi-tech lackeys...

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by 90503

I recall reading that the part-time, get ready to take over driving just in case type of system had already been proven to be the most dangerous....Either full time autonomy or full time driver....the in-between is the most problematic and unreliable....

I don't see how they can say self-driving cars overall will save lives, if you have to pay attention all the time to take over driving from part time in an emergency....Why not pay attention full time like you should in the first place and just drive the friggin' car?...

More lives will be lost to cater to the desire for laziness and self-indulgence provided by autonomous cars and their hi-tech lackies...

Thats more or less what they've found with pilots. When the plane is flying itself the pilot gets complacent and loses situation awareness. Then when he has to take over, because things are beyond what autopilot can handle, things can go very badly very quickly.

I've often wondered what would happen if Automakers spent their money on driving schools instead of active safety tech.

[90503]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Thats more or less what they've found with pilots. When the plane is flying itself the pilot gets complacent and loses situation awareness. Then when he has to take over, because things are beyond what autopilot can handle, things can go very badly very quickly.

I've often wondered what would happen if Automakers spent their money on driving schools instead of active safety tech.

The smart-phones, internet, social media, texting, etc., are the reasons for death on the highways. Instead of catering to that by risking lives with self-driving cars, the technology should be used to make all those distractions impossible to use while behind the wheel of the car or as a passenger in communication with the driver......They could do it, but won't. Consumers are too selfish to put down their phones....

And for clarity, this has gotten way out of hand (actually having the steering wheel "out of hand") far and beyond any distraction like just listening to the radio.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by 90503

The smart-phones, internet, social media, texting, etc., are the reasons for death on the highways. Instead of catering to that by risking lives with self-driving cars, the technology should be used to make all those distractions impossible to use while behind the wheel of the car or as a passenger in communication with the driver......They could do it, but won't. Consumers are too selfish to put down their phones....

And for clarity, this has gotten way out of hand (actually having the steering wheel "out of hand") far and beyond any distraction like just listening to the radio.

Indeed. We've seen a radical shift in transportation safety...The "old things" that used to cause accidents and/or deaths like weather, traction, integrity of vehicle structures, lack of seatbelts, poor signage/signals/traffic patterns have largely been improved with new features and or rules. I believe vehicle-related deaths went down for a while...could be wrong.

Now, stupid people (and I'm blatantly harsh when it comes to this) are voluntarily introducing new distractions/hazards to the equation. Phones are obviously the big ones...interactive DICs are another (get into a Mercedes and see how you interact with the screen!!)...I'm even starting to see some young fools drive around with earbuds in both ears!!! And everyone's just...okay with it.

[h422694]

Originally Posted by sherob

Telsa is having to recall almost half of the vehicles it has put on the road? Musk has lost 17% of his fortune because of this recall? The stock has tanked 21% so far?

Tesla stock dropped 21% in March alone, it's down right at 34% from it's high in 2017