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Old 01-06-2014, 05:56 AM   #659
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for such a great car that is too bad. In limited quantities usually that means only the elite will have a chance.
tell it to your elected officials!
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Old 01-06-2014, 06:09 AM   #660
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that isn't a true statement because we have not announced anything in terms of volume. It will be limited.
I'm basing "limited number" by the interview Al had with Leno. 1400 units for two years. If this is a close number I and everyone should have no complaints about the price. The 2012 ZL1 was a limited number and actually lower than expected. But then again 2013-14 GM mass produced them. Please before I take the plunge tell me no more than 3000 units will be made.
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Old 01-06-2014, 06:56 AM   #661
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Soooooooo, are they going to build as many as they can sell or are they holding to a certain number? If that latter, I bet there will be a lot more people pissed off over this car.
They will make no more than 4,000.
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Old 01-06-2014, 07:32 AM   #662
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I will buy one, but only if they ever offer it in a legit 1969 Hugger Orange. These cars have a lot more expensive parts than a ZL1, about $20K in upgrades. So, the pricing makes sense when you compare it to a base ZL1 priced at $55K. The carbon ceramic brakes usually add about $9-10K to most vehicles, BTW.
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Old 01-06-2014, 07:36 AM   #663
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The Z/28 is awesome! Kudos to GM and everyone involved for bringing this wonderful vehicle to fruition.

After it was mentioned that it was going to be the most expensive street legal Camaro I guessed it was going to be $70k, I was close!

While it is out of my price range, I think it is totally worth it, and I hope to be able to see one when they hit the street or track

Reminds me of a modern day (and better more extreme take) of the 2000 Cobra R

1999 SVT Cobra MSRP-$27,470
2001 SVT Cobra MSRP-$29,600
2000 SVT Cobra R-$54,995


Hope to see a Z/28 at C5 Fest!
I said the same thing on this thread many pages ago. Only 300 Cobra R's were made (no radio, no A/C, full blown track car). Next year at this time, I would love to know real world numbers of how many new Z/28's ever saw a track (every now and then you'll see Cobra R's pop up on Ebay and they only have a few hundred miles on them). I just don't see people spending $75k for a car that IS NOT sanctioned for any road racing (SCCA, etc.) and taking it to a track just to beat on it. "Yea, I bought this car to make some really fast hot laps at my local track simply for a piece of mind.". That is all we keep hearing (it's track worthy, it's track worthy, it's track worthy). All it's good for is glory laps. You can't race it competitively with the stock set-up. Period. Is it cool? Hell yea. But, what else is it good for though, other than local track bragging rights and telling people that you have one? I'd rather have a 1LE for half the price and if you need parts, they're readily available.
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:05 AM   #664
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just wondering if we would of have 434 comments, if gm would have said it's price was 60k car???
Not a chance, they thought this car and this price up thoroughly and for quite some time.
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:14 AM   #665
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I fully understand it take more than just the engine. However 30k? They made the v8 ls3 full car for almost the price it costs to switch motors?
You can't translate the way you operate on a hobbyist basis to the way a real business has to operate. Relying on other assets (such as raiding profits from other segments of the business or other mis-management techniques) is the road to failure of either the specific effort or the entire business.

If you were to do all the necessary work yourself - not just for one car ignoring mandated regulations but for a whole car model certified for country-wide sale - by the time you added up all of your hours and the cost of all the little bits that have not been itemized yet . . . for the price you want to see, minimum wage for your time spent would start to look like middle-income.


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Old 01-06-2014, 08:15 AM   #666
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I have a question with regard to this issue.

Forgetting the Mustang, forgetting the rules of current racing organizations, and forgetting the Gen 2 through Gen 4 where Z28 and SS had different meanings, should the Z/28 be capable of beating the ZL1 around the track?

If your answer is yes, then you have to accept that simply within the world of Camaro, GM set the bar very, very, very high.

I have tried to make the point all along that if you simply put an LS7 in the 1LE you would have a GREAT car. A car I would want and many of you would also. But you MUST accept that the LS7 is a very expensive engine. Many want it to be a few thousand. Others think GM should simply discount it because they want it to be cheap. Accept the fact that it is a premium hand build engine and cost a LOT more than the LS3. I know it's hard we all want something for nothing, but the LS7 is expensive. That car WOULD NOT beat a ZL1 around any track. It would have an 80 HP disadvantage. All things being equal, engine to engine, you have a great car that costs about $55,000 and can't beat the ZL1 around the track.

So if you want the Z/28 to be the track king in the Camaro family you needed to drop some weight, do some unique dampers, go with unique smaller wheels, ANNNNND Carbon Ceramic brakes.

If you accept the notion that the Z/28 was conceived after the ZL1 and it's reason for being wasn't to be a car between the ZL1 and the 1LE then you have to accept the cost for the content and engineering it took to make this car.

Again, the guys on this site that know me, know I have a "thing" for the LS7. It is pure naturally aspirated awesomeness. And I would have paid a huge option price for an LS7 in a 1LE, but from GM's perspective they would simply have two $55,000 Camaros in the stable. One with the LSA and MR shocks and another with the LS7 and a pretty great chassis. But if you went into that showroom and saw 2 cars for about the same money wouldn't you buy the faster car on the track? The faster car for the 1/4 mile? Or would you be like me and just by the LS7 because you had love for that engine? Most people would want the "better" car.

So the cost is driven by making a car significantly faster than a ZL1 on the track. Period. I doubt a Z/28 can take a ZL1 in the 1/4 mile. I'd be pretty shocked by that.

GM set a high bar with the ZL1 and anyone that is making the case for the mythical $60,000 Z/28 is making a case for a car that isn't the top car in it's own family.

Again, for me I would have wanted an LS7 powered 1LE over a ZL1 even if it didn't have the same level of performance and with price being equal. But that's me and I didn't get asked.
I almost agree except that the "better car" is a matter of opinion. The ZL1 is fine if you need luxury and a supercharger. Some want a stock NA fire breather(1SS+1LE+LS7) An LS7 crate is 14K minus the 6k for the LS3, so you have a 45-49k Camaro that is cheaper than the ZL1 but as capable at the justified decontented price.
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:20 AM   #667
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Greg -- thank you for your kind words -- and for your thoughtfulness.

I - and the team - DO get your point.

What I think we're trying to do is to bring the Z/28 back to it's original purpose - and that is to find mustangs on a road course and eat them. No - I'm not saying that this car is set for SCCA rules - what I AM saying is that this car is an amazing driving machine - and on a road course it will blow cars costing many times more to kingdom-come.

NOW - that said -- and I've mentioned this before:

no matter WHAT we do with the Z28 or Z/28 moniker - we alienate some people. For too many years we've alienated the original Z/28 enthusiasts by using the nameplate on a much more mainstream Camaro. To some that's a good thing.......and for a lot of years, they were happy. The reality is that it's time to honor the nameplate by taking it back to its roots.

Yes-- it's expensive - but I invite you to drive a new 1LE or an SS or a ZL1 - and you'll see that we've built a Camaro for 'every purse and purpose" (to use a quote from one of our founders - Alfred Sloan.......

I DO hear what you're saying - but when the final numbers from Nurburgring are published - and the final production numbers are announced - I think - or hope - that you'll see where we're coming from - and that the decisions we make are never easy ones --

We sweat EVERY DECISION because we know we'll get blistered no matter what.

Hope to see you again this year!
So....what's a guy gotta do to get a 1LE Ring time!?! I've had a POLL thread posted FOREVER and nothing
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268238
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:21 AM   #668
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This is 1le related how....
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:39 AM   #669
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Then you've missed a huge piece of the puzzle. Check out the EFI Live or HP Tuners website. The number of tables and software code is mind boggling.
I watched closely as Hennessey "just stuck an LS9" in a Camaro SS for the 1st time. The software problems almost killed that project.
And yet the LS7/LS9 swaps are done as frequently as oil changes now. It just needs to be done once because others will follow suit.
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:55 AM   #670
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Originally Posted by DRKS1D3 View Post
I said the same thing on this thread many pages ago. Only 300 Cobra R's were made (no radio, no A/C, full blown track car). Next year at this time, I would love to know real world numbers of how many new Z/28's ever saw a track (every now and then you'll see Cobra R's pop up on Ebay and they only have a few hundred miles on them). I just don't see people spending $75k for a car that IS NOT sanctioned for any road racing (SCCA, etc.) and taking it to a track just to beat on it. "Yea, I bought this car to make some really fast hot laps at my local track simply for a piece of mind.". That is all we keep hearing (it's track worthy, it's track worthy, it's track worthy). All it's good for is glory laps. You can't race it competitively with the stock set-up. Period. Is it cool? Hell yea. But, what else is it good for though, other than local track bragging rights and telling people that you have one? I'd rather have a 1LE for half the price and if you need parts, they're readily available.
People buy cars that they like and want for their own reasons and how they rationalize that purchase is personal as well. Lamborghini sold 14,000 Gallardos at $250,000 a piece. I don't see an SCCA class for them.
A car can be a reward for achieving a personal goal, it doesn't have to a have a value proposition. (Ie.1LE makes more $ sense than a z28)Same thing as treating yourself to a $300 meal vs. The $30 BBQ joint.
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:55 AM   #671
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I just don't see people spending $75k for a car that IS NOT sanctioned for any road racing (SCCA, etc.) and taking it to a track just to beat on it. "Yea, I bought this car to make some really fast hot laps at my local track simply for a piece of mind.". That is all we keep hearing (it's track worthy, it's track worthy, it's track worthy).
I have a new name for people who continue to spew this "sanctioning" crap: "swallowers". A person would post this sanctioning BS for two reasons:
1. They swallow whole what others spew without understanding exactly what they are talking about. Hence, a "swallower". Like a follower but worse because of the damage they create with their BS.
2. They are a troll with one mission- baffle with BS.

It's a red herring claim. I have done track days for years, I am an SCCA licensed driving instructor. Door to door racing requires, in all cases, a fully caged car. You can't legally operate a fully caged car on the street. Therefore a car without a cage can not participate in a door to door racing event and "sanctioning" can never come into play. However trackday events never require cages and do not have classed entries. Any "classes" in a trackday are based on skill and experience. Not the car.

I've also invested the time and made the effort to start two threads that attempt to clearly explain the trackday experience: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=335753

Any attempt by a poster to perpetuate this "sanctioned event" BS must now be called out for what it is- willful ignorance, trolling or both.
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Old 01-06-2014, 09:04 AM   #672
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No I was being honest. The square taillights are very distinctive and you know its a camaro just like a challengers taillights. New ones are not. I know everyone at gm did a great job on the z28 but for me it is the one piece of the 5th gen I just do not like is the taillights. If I buy a z28 the rear end will be one part I transfer over from my current 2010. To me ,I think GM did a great job on the square taillights and I plan on keeping them. That's what makes all our camaros great is our own personal changes.
Not going to get into the great tail light debate in this thread because it's been hashed over a million times already. I was just giving you the benefit of the doubt. I guess I gave the benefit out to easily...
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