Camaro Z/28 Nurburgring time = 7:37.47 !! [VIDEO]

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

I think to be fair, we should allow the Z/28 to have engine mods that equal the price of the wheels and tires the ZL1 will receive. I think a cam, long tubes and tune should come close to the forged wheels and tires. That should make up for the power difference between the two.

I hear ya.
However in the end you buy what fills your wants, needs. If anyone wants to mod, start with the car that needs the fewest changes to make it what you want.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

I hear ya.
However in the end you buy what fills your wants, needs. If anyone wants to mod, start with the car that needs the fewest changes to make it what you want.

I mean in the context of this comparison. As much as people complain about the Z/28s tires, they conveniently ignore the 75 horsepower ~90 lb*ft torque advantage.

The ZL1 only gained ground in the long straight, where its horsepower made the difference. Give the Z/28 more power and the ZL1 would have no chance.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

I mean in the context of this comparison. As much as people complain about the Z/28s tires, they conveniently ignore the 75 horsepower ~90 lb*ft torque advantage.

The ZL1 only gained ground in the long straight, where its horsepower made the difference. Give the Z/28 more power and the ZL1 would have no chance.

I agree with your argument. But in my opinion it's a moot point.

Cars are like tools. How?, use the right one for the job. If you want to road race buy the car built for it. If you want more take that car and add to it (as you suggest). For those that can't see the Z/28 IS the better platform for road racing...Oh well you can lead a horse to water...

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

I agree with your argument. But in my opinion it's a moot point.

Cars are like tools. How?, use the right one for the job. If you want to road race buy the car built for it. If you want more take that car and add to it (as you suggest). For those that can't see the Z/28 IS the better platform for road racing...Oh well you can lead a horse to water...

I agree 100%. I just find it ironic how they nitpick at the grip advantage but leave out a massive power advantage. Not to mention a suspension that probably handles the various surfaces of the Ring better as well.

[Blueclyde]

I think this discussion about the ZL1 plus tires is reasonable for a couple of reasons. I'm not advocating that it makes the two cars close to equal. I realize the differences between the two cars.

1.) The Z/28 is going to have limited production numbers and will be difficult to buy. It will not be obtainable by all that would purchase one. Price and dealer markup also factor into this point.

2.) Adding a set of sticky tires is a reasonably simple modification to make. People do it all the time for drag racing, why not for the weekend road course racer?

I spoke with one of the Camaro team member last summer about the 3 second per lap faster stat from the Milford Proving a Grounds course. This person said roughly 2 of those 3 seconds were from the difference in tires. No doubt the Z/28 is going to be the faster car, and the deeper into a session it goes the wider the gaps due to minimal fall off.

I think the point is that the ZL1 on a set of stickies would be a pretty stout combination, given how good it is on the Goodyears. It doesn't make it a Z/28 but it makes it a considerably faster ZL1.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by Blueclyde

I think this discussion about the ZL1 plus tires is reasonable for a couple of reasons. I'm not advocating that it makes the two cars close to equal. I realize the differences between the two cars.

1.) The Z/28 is going to have limited production numbers and will be difficult to buy. It will not be obtainable by all that would purchase one. Price and dealer markup also factor into this point.

2.) Adding a set of sticky tires is a reasonably simple modification to make. People do it all the time for drag racing, why not for the weekend road course racer?

I spoke with one of the Camaro team member last summer about the 3 second per lap faster stat from the Milford Proving a Grounds course. This person said roughly 2 of those 3 seconds were from the difference in tires. No doubt the Z/28 is going to be the faster car, and the deeper into a session it goes the wider the gaps due to minimal fall off.

I think the point is that the ZL1 on a set of stickies would be a pretty stout combination, given how good it is on the Goodyears. It doesn't make it a Z/28 but it makes it a considerably faster ZL1.

That's understood. I agree with you due to lack of availability alternatives need to be sought. However there are some that are making a much different argument.

Personally I would prefer to build a 1LE towards a Z/28.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

Deja Vu

You have already made these statements and I've already answered you...weeks ago.

Perhaps, but not exactly

The reason is that it is no longer necessary to "mod" a ZL1. One can order one which may very well be as fast, or perhaps even faster (we don't know), right from a GM dealer.

So we have 2 buyers: one spends 75Gs believing they are buying the fastest Camaro ever. The other spends 55Gs plus Recaros and rims/rubber. Let's be generous and say 63Gs. Both guys are the same level drivers. Both guys meet at the same track. Z/28 does not "walk away" from the ZL1. Who knows, maybe it even ends up being "pushed" a bit. This is hypothetical of course, but it could be a real scenario given the cars were only 2.87 seconds apart at Milford. But it is equally "hypothetical" to say that one car is faster vs another but on different type tires! Most mass market buyers won't know the difference. But folks that consider themselves "track rats" would find such suggestion amusing, as most use track specific r-comp (or slick) tires no matter what tires a car comes with from a factory. And most go thru multiple sets of tires per season. Ditto brake components, fluids, etc. They view those as "consumables".

So when marketing a "track car" to track savvy folks, one should be rather careful how comparos are made. Unless of course the car is intended for collectors and "garage racers" who simply wish to enjoy it as a special purchase (which is totally cool BTW).

NB given short stints at DE type events and heavy weight of both cars to start with (3800lb is by no means a lightweight vs 4000lb) both cars would likely manifest the same tire wear. But what would defo make the biggest difference, is a driver's style. If one is aggressive and not sufficiently smooth with controls, you can burn a set of tires off a 3000lb car in a hurry just as well.

[tekteq]

I'm pretty sure GM has more invested in how well their new vettes will do on the Nurburgring. Z28 may be pretty impressive on the track but the vette is about 400 pounds lighter and much more aerodynamic. All I hope to see is the '15/'16 Z06/Z07 touch the GTR on the track and I'll be satisfied.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by tekteq

I'm pretty sure GM has more invested in how well their new vettes will do on the Nurburgring. Z28 may be pretty impressive on the track but the vette is about 400 pounds lighter and much more aerodynamic. All I hope to see is the '15/'16 Z06/Z07 touch the GTR on the track and I'll be satisfied.

Ditto! That's the real "game" now
And for C7R to take the P1 at Daytona!

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

You're wayyyyy of on the weight reduction from those few items. Probably closer to 30 lbs.
We'll see soon (Friday) how well the Z/28 fares on the track.

The weight of Z/28 rear seat has been reduced by over 40lb thru use of thinner foam (per GMauthority). So my assumption is:
30lb per each front seat, plus 10lb per wheel. That adds up to an estimated 100lb. If I am off (up or down) it shouldn't be by much.
What's up on Friday? Another track test? Any details?

[Zfatuated]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Perhaps, but not exactly

The reason is that it is no longer necessary to "mod" a ZL1. One can order one which may very well be as fast, or perhaps even faster (we don't know), right from a GM dealer.

So we have 2 buyers: one spends 75Gs believing they are buying the fastest Camaro ever. The other spends 55Gs plus Recaros and rims/rubber. Let's be generous and say 63Gs. Both guys are the same level drivers. Both guys meet at the same track. Z/28 does not "walk away" from the ZL1. Who knows, maybe it even ends up being "pushed" a bit. This is hypothetical of course, but it could be a real scenario given the cars were only 2.87 seconds apart at Milford. But it is equally "hypothetical" to say that one car is faster vs another but on different type tires! Most mass market buyers won't know the difference. But folks that consider themselves "track rats" would find such suggestion amusing, as most use track specific r-comp (or slick) tires no matter what tires a car comes with from a factory. And most go thru multiple sets of tires per season. Ditto brake components, fluids, etc. They view those as "consumables".

So when marketing a "track car" to track savvy folks, one should be rather careful how comparos are made. Unless of course the car is intended for collectors and "garage racers" who simply wish to enjoy it as a special purchase (which is totally cool BTW).

NB given short stints at DE type events and heavy weight of both cars to start with (3800lb is by no means a lightweight vs 4000lb) both cars would likely manifest the same tire wear. But what would defo make the biggest difference, is a driver's style. If one is aggressive and not sufficiently smooth with controls, you can burn a set of tires off a 3000lb car in a hurry just as well.

Shesus f'ing christ man! Give it a rest would you? Your fact twisting, speculative hypothetical BS spew is so f'ing tedious to read post after post after post. I have the experience, I know exactly what I am looking at and this isn't the first f'ing track car I am going to buy.

I know multiple buyers who are moving from much more expensive track cars because of the value the Z/28 provides. Don't come here and spew about who the buyers are and what they want because you don't have a clue what the f you are talking about.

Your constant, never-ending "warning" to some mythical buyer that exists in your mind only is so f'ing old.

This poster has to be a friggen Bot given its single-minded focus on trying to seed FUD (fear/uncertainty/doubt) in every GD post it makes.

Somewhere there is a forum better suited to your agenda than this one.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Zfatuated

Shesus f'ing christ man! Give it a rest would you? Your fact twisting, speculative hypothetical BS spew is so f'ing tedious to read post after post after post. I have the experience, I know exactly what I am looking at and this isn't the first f'ing track car I am going to buy.

I know multiple buyers who are moving from much more expensive track cars because of the value the Z/28 provides. Don't come here and spew about who the buyers are and what they want because you don't have a clue what the f you are talking about.

Your constant, never-ending "warning" to some mythical buyer that exists in your mind only is so f'ing old.

This poster has to be a friggen Bot given its single-minded focus on trying to seed FUD (fear/uncertainty/doubt) in every GD post it makes.

Somewhere there is a forum better suited to your agenda than this one.

Thanks for that Since when presenting a different POV is seeding FUD? Do we live in PRC? But you're right, it is clear that this is not the right forum to debate the subject of a track car (except for 2 other folks that seem knowledgeable and objective). Enjoy your new car - it is certainly a very nice piece of expensive machinery - no doubt about it.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

I mean in the context of this comparison. As much as people complain about the Z/28s tires, they conveniently ignore the 75 horsepower ~90 lb*ft torque advantage.

The ZL1 only gained ground in the long straight, where its horsepower made the difference. Give the Z/28 more power and the ZL1 would have no chance.

Agree! But you can't buy a z/28 with more power, yet you can buy a ZL1 with Z/28 rim/tires from GM. So it would be even faster in the straights and possibly as fast in the corners. So the lap time could very well be faster. At least in theory (as that's all we have to debate).

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

It's really a very comedic argument. Why? Taking what is the same basic platform and taking what differences there are and making them closer to the same to see if they can be equalled...crazy!!!

Why not do it the easy way and put an LSA in the Z/28? That's where you're heading.

It ends up being nothing more than ridiculous and mind numbing.

Why is it ridicuous and mind numbing to compare 2 track cars on equal tires?
Since you've brought up the LSA: why doesn't Z/28 have more power? Either tricked LS7 or LSA? If it had, there would be no debate. And for those that think LSA type motor is unsuitable for track: what is it doing in the ultimate track car (Z06)?