Carbon ceramic brakes

[5thgenlife]

So I'm in a dilemma and need input, maybe I didn't do as much research as I should have before I decided I would convert to carbon ceramic brakes. If I didn't track the car like I do and plan to push it harder it would be a no brainier to keep them for all the benefits. But after more research with the brake pad transfer and coming across a 1le caliper that dust boots where cooked on along with the powder coating. I have got my brakes pretty hot but have not damaged the coating. After seeing that our oem calipers aren't made for heavy track use with aluminum pistons that transfer alot of heat into fluid vs stainless, the AP racing calipers are anodized so they will hold up to heat, have stainless steel pistons, no dust boots, and cost of maintenance will be far less with steel rotors vs Carbon rotors. If the carbon set up is going to wear out quick on the track which I hear it can if your really pushing the car but will last damn near the life of the vehicle if it's just a street car, then it will be a financially better decision to either upgrade to AP racing kit and stick with steel rotors. Z28 definitely has a larger caliper then the zl1, maybe use z28 calipers with steel rotors for replacement cost purposes?

Guys that track hard what's your calipers look like and what's your thoughts on all this?

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[j o n]

I would reach out to him, bargain setup :
https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=395103

His setup:
Brakes
-C7 Corvette ZO6 Non-Carbon Ceramic Front Calipers w/ Vented Pistons, repainted red with G2 Epoxy Caliper Paint. Custom 1LE and Brembo decals
-DBA 5000 Series Rotor Rings, For C7 Corvette ZO6 Non-Carbon Ceramic, Part # 52770.1, Right and Left, Reuse of ZL1 Rotor hat
-Goodridge Front & Rear ZL1 Brake Hose Kit
-Chevrolet Performance Z/28 Front Brake Ducts and Quantum Rotor Duct Kit with custom intake at existing fog light trim bezels
-DOT 4 Castrol SRF Brake Fluid
-Raybestos ST43 Racing Brake Pads
-Girodisc Titanium Front Caliper Shims

But yes, heavy track goers use girodisc rotors w/ existing z/28 calipers

[5thgenlife]

I guess I should have added this is for a 13 zl1.

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[Mark_Z28]

Do you already have the z28 calipers? if so just go with steel rotors.

[Nick S]

Personally I'd go with the Essex/AP 9668 calipers/372 mm rotor kit. I have that on my 2013 1LE and the kit has shown to be more then adequate. I co-drove my car with another fellow racer when his car was broken and two hard drivers driving back to back 20 minute sessions in 90+deg ambient heat and the brakes felt great start to finish. I only have the Z/28 brake ducts to get air from the front grill to the wheel well, but it is not ducted from the wheel well to the rotor. So I don't have a crazy brake duct set up or anything to keep them cool. Just the OEM brake ducts dumping air into the wheel area.

I'd get the 9668 kit with the Ferodo DS3.12 pads front and get a set of DS3.12's for your OEM rear calipers and just drive the car. Change brake fluid too of course.

I saved 8lbs per corner with the Essex/AP kit as well when compared to the OEM ZL1 6-piston brembo kit I had on my car before changing to the Essex/AP kit. So that's 16 lbs off the front of the car just from the brake kit swap.

[5thgenlife]

Originally Posted by Mark_Z28

Do you already have the z28 calipers? if so just go with steel rotors.

I have a zl1 with a z28 complete kit on it, rotors and calipers I planned to pull off and put on my personal zl1 and then sell the car. Now contemplating if I should even remove them or just upgrade my oem zl1 brakes. My zl1 brakes have performed fine, wanted the ccm for looks l, better performance, weight, and of course dust. Now I'm trying to factor in maintenance costs and if it's even worth it.

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[j o n]

Originally Posted by 5thgenlife

I have a zl1 with a z28 complete kit on it, rotors and calipers I planned to pull off and put on my personal zl1 and then sell the car. Now contemplating if I should even remove them or just upgrade my oem zl1 brakes. My zl1 brakes have performed fine, wanted the ccm for looks l, better performance, weight, and of course dust. Now I'm trying to factor in maintenance costs and if it's even worth it.

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These pads make the rotors last longer under track use. The OP competitively races his z/28 with them
https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showt...d#post10627706

[cdb95z28]

Originally Posted by j o n

I would reach out to him, bargain setup :
https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=395103

His setup:
Brakes
-C7 Corvette ZO6 Non-Carbon Ceramic Front Calipers w/ Vented Pistons, repainted red with G2 Epoxy Caliper Paint. Custom 1LE and Brembo decals
-DBA 5000 Series Rotor Rings, For C7 Corvette ZO6 Non-Carbon Ceramic, Part # 52770.1, Right and Left, Reuse of ZL1 Rotor hat
-Goodridge Front & Rear ZL1 Brake Hose Kit
-Chevrolet Performance Z/28 Front Brake Ducts and Quantum Rotor Duct Kit with custom intake at existing fog light trim bezels
-DOT 4 Castrol SRF Brake Fluid
-Raybestos ST43 Racing Brake Pads
-Girodisc Titanium Front Caliper Shims




But yes, heavy track goers use girodisc rotors w/ existing z/28 calipers

LOL, ^^^Looks familiar! Yeah, that's my setup.
Lots to cover here.

The AP setup is a great choice, you cannot go wrong with that setup. But the price is steep. If you are committed for the long term with your car, then it may be a good investment. And it will take hard use all day, all weekend! Better than the OE Brembos without a doubt. The AP/Essex video hits on alot of benefits to their setup vs the Brembos. But I believe the Brembo setup can perform very well, better than AP/Essex would lead you to believe.

here's their video.


Their marketing department sure did squeeze alot out of those OE calipers. That goes back to 2016 or so, it was a member here on the forums. That instance was an exception not the rule! Will OE calipers discolor with continued excessive high heat? Yes! I said excessive. There are many factors that play a part on heat generation. Cooling, pad selection, piston material, track layout and driver. Late braking is easier on brakes than early, prolonged braking. I run the ZO6 caliper which has the vented pistons. That helps keep heat out of the caliper at the expense of keeping it in the rotor. As long as you have a high temp pad, that is not necessarily a problem. When I bought those calipers I repainted them with VHT caliper paint and threw on some 1LE decals. I did not want the "Corvette" lettering that was on those calipers. I installed the 6 piston setup in September of 2015 using the ZL1 2 piece rotor and the Raybestos ST43 pad. I ran 10 track days with those parts. The VHT paint blistered and my decals discolored. But I had zero brake fade or fluid issues. Admittedly, my brake technique was more of the longer drawn out application. My piston dust boots were burnt. I have since attributed that to my technique and inadequate cool down coming off the track.

The winter of 17-18, I removed the calipers, sandblasted them, rebuilt with the OE vented pistons and OE style Centric seals/boots from Rockauto.com. I repainted the calipers with the the G2 epoxy system. I also bought the above mentioned DBA C7 ZO6 rotor rings and mounted them to my ZL1 hats. And I reused the same ST43 pads from 9/15. The Raybestos pads wear like iron, have great cold bite (surprisingly). Actually too much cold bite on the street sometimes, depending on the state of rotor/pad bed in. I don't really think they are "hard" on the rotors. Like I said, the OE ZL1 rotors went 10 track days and were ready for replacement. I may have gotten more from them, but the cracking was headed to the edge. The Raybestos pad, since they are truly a racing pad, generate lots of heat. They have been used by NASCAR Cup series guys on intermediate tracks.

Fast forward to last year, July 2019, another 10 track days, and I put on a new set of OE ZL1 2 piece rotors. 10 days on the DBA rings, and they still have life in them. Why did I swap them? That event in July was an all day event. I did not want my day cut short if I found the DBAs to be ready for replacement. I have since put them back on for this years season.
So, overall, I have 22 track days of varying length (half, full days) on my setup with zero pad fade or boiling issues. I have used Motul RBF600, then I went with Castrol SRF which is the gold standard. It does have some negatives like cost and its hot compressability. I have since started using Brembo HTC64T , primarily for the better pedal feel of its low compressability.

Oh, and since the rebuild in the winter of 17-18, my boots look perfect. So, my lap times are better in part to better, later braking, but the seals look good. Harder braking, but less heat into the seals.

Now, at my track Pitt Race, my top speed is 127-129. What track are you running at? Your track may be harder on the brakes. I see your running a ZL1 so you have big power, that is tougher on the brakes than it would be on mine (almost 500HP). Any power adders on your ZL1? And your ZL1 weighs more than mine.

That 1LE owner on the AP/Essex page/video, he was using the JDP/Quantum brake ducts. But the duct tubing that they supply is not good. I saw the pics of his setup on the car and saw what tubing he used. I use the JDP/Quantum but I use the old school 3" Thermoid orange tubing. It's less restrictive. He was also not using OE pads. So race pads generate lots of heat. The ZL1 has the very good Ferodo HP1000 pads. It's a good balance between street and track. But, on track, they can be faded. GM still uses this material on the Gen6 SS 1LE, ZL1, and ZL1 1LE. They engineered those brakes to not fade on track on those cars. Lots of OE cooling there. The Gen 6 SS 1LE is essentially using the Gen5 ZL1 front brakes, while the Gen 6 ZL1, ZL1 1LE is using a bigger caliper and rotor (15.4" IIRC).

My aero helps the evacuation of the air within the brakes/wheelhouse. The ZL1 has some aero that helps do this also.

I am also utilizing the OE Z/28 brake ducting which is very similar to the OE ZL1 ducting. This type of ducting is not enough on its own. But I think it is helping to introduce cool air into the wheelhouse, which cannot hurt.

Honestly, I think a Gen5 ZL1 would be awesome with the Gen6 ZL1 front brake setup. It's bigger, more mass for heat absorption. Though that higher mass hurts unsprung weight. Probably still need better cooling than the OE ZL1 cooling though. A Gen6 ZL1 1LE owner on the Camaro6 forums was selling their OE front brake setup a few months ago.

[cdb95z28]

Also, the leaking at the bleed screws is debatable. I have never had leaking. I attribute it to not removing the residual fluid from within the closed bleeder and its threads. Get 'em hot and that residual fluid wants to push out.

And make sure you do lots of cooling down of the brakes when you are done running hot laps. At my track, one cool down lap is not enough, so I actually leave the track property and run down its entrance road and turn around and come back. That cools them down very well.

[olblue75]

I’m using the ZL1/CTS-V 6 piston calipers with the Z06 pistons running CTS-V rotors an have several track days on them using Z06 pads and no cooling yet with no issues and I’ve been able to hit 122-123 down the front stretch at NCM.
Now I know the rotors aren’t optimal but I’m slowly building a set up with ZL1 front with the DBA Rings for a Z06 and GS, I was able to get a set Z28 rear hats without rings and will be installing the Z06/GS rear rings on those, I also have the Z28 brake duct kit and wheel well liners that I have to modify for my 2010 and also have 6th Gen deflectors for the control arms to help get the air to the rotors a little better.
Now during my track day after my runs I cruise the back lot before pulling into the garage where I put 3 box fans on the front wheels and grill to cool thing down. Half way through the next groups session I crank the engine an let the oil circulate to bring some warm oil back up to my remote cooler.
Now my motor is all stock (but changing soon) but I’ve not had any issues with high temps or brake fade also using DOT4 fluid best I could find in my hometown.
Now you guys with more power I can see cooking brakes or at least more fade.
Some of you guys probably think I’m wasting my money or only doing it half way but this is also a daily driver and not a dedicated track car so I think my mods are/will be pretty solid.

[5thgenlife]

Originally Posted by cdb95z28

LOL, ^^^Looks familiar! Yeah, that's my setup.

Lots to cover here.



The AP setup is a great choice, you cannot go wrong with that setup. But the price is steep. If you are committed for the long term with your car, then it may be a good investment. And it will take hard use all day, all weekend! Better than the OE Brembos without a doubt. The AP/Essex video hits on alot of benefits to their setup vs the Brembos. But I believe the Brembo setup can perform very well, better than AP/Essex would lead you to believe.



here's their video.





Their marketing department sure did squeeze alot out of those OE calipers. That goes back to 2016 or so, it was a member here on the forums. That instance was an exception not the rule! Will OE calipers discolor with continued excessive high heat? Yes! I said excessive. There are many factors that play a part on heat generation. Cooling, pad selection, piston material, track layout and driver. Late braking is easier on brakes than early, prolonged braking. I run the ZO6 caliper which has the vented pistons. That helps keep heat out of the caliper at the expense of keeping it in the rotor. As long as you have a high temp pad, that is not necessarily a problem. When I bought those calipers I repainted them with VHT caliper paint and threw on some 1LE decals. I did not want the "Corvette" lettering that was on those calipers. I installed the 6 piston setup in September of 2015 using the ZL1 2 piece rotor and the Raybestos ST43 pad. I ran 10 track days with those parts. The VHT paint blistered and my decals discolored. But I had zero brake fade or fluid issues. Admittedly, my brake technique was more of the longer drawn out application. My piston dust boots were burnt. I have since attributed that to my technique and inadequate cool down coming off the track.



The winter of 17-18, I removed the calipers, sandblasted them, rebuilt with the OE vented pistons and OE style Centric seals/boots from Rockauto.com. I repainted the calipers with the the G2 epoxy system. I also bought the above mentioned DBA C7 ZO6 rotor rings and mounted them to my ZL1 hats. And I reused the same ST43 pads from 9/15. The Raybestos pads wear like iron, have great cold bite (surprisingly). Actually too much cold bite on the street sometimes, depending on the state of rotor/pad bed in. I don't really think they are "hard" on the rotors. Like I said, the OE ZL1 rotors went 10 track days and were ready for replacement. I may have gotten more from them, but the cracking was headed to the edge. The Raybestos pad, since they are truly a racing pad, generate lots of heat. They have been used by NASCAR Cup series guys on intermediate tracks.



Fast forward to last year, July 2019, another 10 track days, and I put on a new set of OE ZL1 2 piece rotors. 10 days on the DBA rings, and they still have life in them. Why did I swap them? That event in July was an all day event. I did not want my day cut short if I found the DBAs to be ready for replacement. I have since put them back on for this years season.

So, overall, I have 22 track days of varying length (half, full days) on my setup with zero pad fade or boiling issues. I have used Motul RBF600, then I went with Castrol SRF which is the gold standard. It does have some negatives like cost and its hot compressability. I have since started using Brembo HTC64T , primarily for the better pedal feel of its low compressability.



Oh, and since the rebuild in the winter of 17-18, my boots look perfect. So, my lap times are better in part to better, later braking, but the seals look good. Harder braking, but less heat into the seals.



Now, at my track Pitt Race, my top speed is 127-129. What track are you running at? Your track may be harder on the brakes. I see your running a ZL1 so you have big power, that is tougher on the brakes than it would be on mine (almost 500HP). Any power adders on your ZL1? And your ZL1 weighs more than mine.



That 1LE owner on the AP/Essex page/video, he was using the JDP/Quantum brake ducts. But the duct tubing that they supply is not good. I saw the pics of his setup on the car and saw what tubing he used. I use the JDP/Quantum but I use the old school 3" Thermoid orange tubing. It's less restrictive. He was also not using OE pads. So race pads generate lots of heat. The ZL1 has the very good Ferodo HP1000 pads. It's a good balance between street and track. But, on track, they can be faded. GM still uses this material on the Gen6 SS 1LE, ZL1, and ZL1 1LE. They engineered those brakes to not fade on track on those cars. Lots of OE cooling there. The Gen 6 SS 1LE is essentially using the Gen5 ZL1 front brakes, while the Gen 6 ZL1, ZL1 1LE is using a bigger caliper and rotor (15.4" IIRC).



My aero helps the evacuation of the air within the brakes/wheelhouse. The ZL1 has some aero that helps do this also.



I am also utilizing the OE Z/28 brake ducting which is very similar to the OE ZL1 ducting. This type of ducting is not enough on its own. But I think it is helping to introduce cool air into the wheelhouse, which cannot hurt.



Honestly, I think a Gen5 ZL1 would be awesome with the Gen6 ZL1 front brake setup. It's bigger, more mass for heat absorption. Though that higher mass hurts unsprung weight. Probably still need better cooling than the OE ZL1 cooling though. A Gen6 ZL1 1LE owner on the Camaro6 forums was selling their OE front brake setup a few months ago.

Thanks for all the input and going in depth on everything. I had planned on running the sintered pads with the ccr but after seeing those AP racing videos it made me start thinking more. I think the decision is going to be to use the z28 calipers and ccr, install z06 pistons in them, sintered pads, stainless lines and see what kind of life I get out of it with my use of the car. I'm not a rookie but I'm also not a professional either. I will look into that brembo fluid, I may not notice anything with my skill level though. My two main tracks I've been on are the NCM and mid Ohio sports car course. They both have adequate cooling time compared to other tracks I've been on. I also didn't know the OEM zl1 pads where ferodo. Lots of good info in the other post linked. I did go through that as well.

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