Forged Internal LSA?

[Shurenuff]

Originally Posted by Caliman93230

Forged lsa = ls9 lol

not really

[2012 ZL1]

Originally Posted by Caliman93230

Forged lsa = ls9 lol

If I'm to understand correctly the lsa and ls9 have different heads, cam, and supercharger also... So a piston change on the assembly line in a minor change.. It's one of the least expensive and evasive parts in the group.. The only thing other thing that compares in price and ease of swap is the cam which is probably easier and cheaper on the assembly line that the pistons because it's only one part vs eight parts. we shouldn't have to "pony up"any more cash for better pistons..

[Caliman93230]

Originally Posted by Shurenuff

not really

To handle the hp and and heat your gona be close

[Caliman93230]

Originally Posted by 2012 ZL1

If I'm to understand correctly the lsa and ls9 have different heads, cam, and supercharger also... So a piston change on the assembly line in a minor change.. It's one of the least expensive and evasive parts in the group.. The only thing other thing that compares in price and ease of swap is the cam which is probably easier and cheaper on the assembly line that the pistons because it's only one part vs eight parts.

Sure you can have forged pistons but then your going to want to upgrade the rest of the components to increase hp and make the engine durable

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by hairtrigger

What is GM's thoughts on the hypereutectic pistons installed in the LSA, which was originally designed for the Cadillac?
The hyper pistons are quieter than forged, thus keeping with the refined Cadillac tradition.
Is there any reluctance at all by the GM engineers to use the same pistons and rods in the ZL1, knowing that they might see harsher usage.
Is the LSA proven beyond a doubt at the HP it's rated for, reliability wise and is there any headroom for increased power by the owner. If so, what is it?

Absolutely, the LSA meets all of GM's tests and evaluations. And yes, it is a very refined package.

There is no reluctance, it's simply a matter of balancing cost, reliabilty and performance.

For example, the LS9 has Forged Pistons and Titanium connecting rods. The LSA has Hypereutechtice Pistons and powdered metal connecting rods.

The upgrade is to handle the cyclinder pressures for the higher HP.

Here are the specs directly from GMPP

LS9

http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/En...0199&engCat=ls

LSA

http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/En...1708&engCat=ls

GM has to provide an engine that meets all of it's standards, as well as the governments for emissions. All of these engines meets those rigorous specifications.

And please everybody stop going to your catalogues and pricing forged pistons and titanium rods and going see!!!! All GM has to do is give me $1,000 worth of parts and I'd pay that. The problem is that it isn't simply the piece cost increase. It's the complexity and automation to build a few engines to a higher specification, which is exactly why Wixom exists. You can't just go to the LSA line and upgrade a few parts. It then becomes a manual build and you are now in Wixom. You have to understand the manufacturing of an engine (not the build) and the automation required.

Could GM put the LS9 in the Camaro? Sure, but at likely a $HUGE premium. How many Zl1s would GM sell at that higher price? Not as many.

Could GM create an all new engine family just for the Camaro? Sure, but at a still higher cost because you'd be in Wixom again to handle the low volume.

I (and GM) understand that there are customers that will mod their cars. It is also understood that some people would pay a $10,000 premium for the engine. It's just there aren't that many of you that would. Think of the number of people right now that think they can simply take their SS and add their own SC and have a car that will be better than a ZL1.

Some of you don't seem to understand that there are people inside of GM that think exactly like you do, and more. One Camaro engineer, who worked for me years ago on Corvette, bought one of the first Z06s and took it home and with 10 miles on the clock swapped the cam, had the headers cleaned up and put long term headers on it. That's the type of engineers we have. They are right there trying to get the most performance and enjoyment from their cars, just like some of you. But to design and engineer a car for production is a different matter.

The point of the ZL1 is to have an "affordable" super performance car. And, no, it won't make everybody happy. Not many cars and trucks do.

I simply go back to when the SS was introduced. Not everyone was totally happy, but in the end it's selling like crazy desite not having a height adjustable passenger seat, my personal dislike, that will be recitified with the ZL1.

[2010 SS RS]

Oh its so nice to have Number 3 post up and explain the reality so folks would just relax and stop the "they should give us" "I would buy it but" stuff here.

And for those that continue to think the ls3 stock internal FI motor is going to be a long term build look closely at the main difference in the ls3 vs lsa motor. Compression is dropped to a conservitive 9.1:1

Looking at the available approved and certified engine line up that GM has I totally think their selection of the lsa was the most cost effective choice to put a 550 hp car on a showroom floor. If that is not enough for you then you will have to pony up the serious cash to build your own.

[bada]

Originally Posted by 2012 ZL1

Why don't they just give us the best and build it right ! It's only a part minor change in the assembly line.

I agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bada]

Originally Posted by thePill

The Ford 5.4 and the LS9 are $20,000+ engines, you wouldn't expect GM to stuff a $20k LS9 into a 5th gen and try to remain price competitive with the GT500. Using the standard LSA with its current internals allows GM to make additional improvements for a well rounded vehicle. The LSA has great internals any more internal strenght would be over kill. The GT500's 5.4 for instance, is just too much beef for what the car is intended for. How many GT500 owners actually push their cars up to the 1000hp they are said to handle. The engine is awesome.. too awesome... too much quality steel for the kind of people this car attracts. If you truely want an 8 second rocket, buy a used 2005 V6, buy a 5.4 and Cobra Jet FR suspension from Ford Racing and build it up.. and you still will be below the $55k the GT500 runs for.. Oh, don't forget the 6060 and some stickies... you will need that...

It would not cost that much more, to put the good internals in the LSA.

[hairtrigger]

Originally Posted by bada

It would not cost that much more, to put the good internals in the LSA.

You do understand that GM itself has spoken on this matter in this very thread, don't you?

[Russell James]

Get over it already. The LSA was spec'd out with components perfect for it's intended power level and application. Are CTS-V's having piston problems? Even the mildly modified ones? Not that I've seen.

Many people are even putting the larger 2.3L supercharger on the LS3 that doesn't even have the forged crank of the LSA, are they having problems at reasonable boost levels? They even have higher compression.
Hmm, higher compression, cast pistons and cast crank and higher boost. Compared to an LSA with a forged crank, 9 to 1, and a smaller supercharger... and there is a concern that the pistons will be a problem?


If one needs a huge hp and boost increase, it will take more than just forged pistons. You'll need top dollar con rods and bolts, valve train parts... $$$$ titanium... Then your drivetrain will need mega $$$ upgrades... cooling system.... fuel system... If you think you can just put huge boost to a stock engine and expect reliability just because it has forged pistons is fantasy land. There is a ton more to it. The LS9 has under 100 hp more and look at the high dollar parts it takes to get there. And the drivetrain parts that are in the ZR1 to handle 600+ hp. There is a reason that car stickers at $120K

Those crying that the LSA needs "good internal"... have you owned one and had problems with "bad internals"? What power level are you expecting to boost it too? Are you prepared to modify a ton of other things to reliably use that much power? Ever see the youtube video of the GT500 kicking a rod out the side of the block on the dyno because they cranked the boost way up? Gee, those were forged pistons. I guess that guy had the same thought, it's forged it can handle a massive power increase. Then reality blew it up.

Lets hear exactly what those of you that think forged pistons are a must to be considered "good internals" have intended for mods to your ZL1. How much boost and hp are you going to mod to? How many tens of thousands do you intend on spending on mods to support that hp level?

[calbert1999]

Originally Posted by CC Performance

We can forge your engine for a heck of a lot less than that. For 3875 we can deliver a true precision built forged engine that will be better built than what comes from GM.

I hear ya'. I'll be doing mine next year, and yes I was told approx $4k. to stroke the engine with forged internals.

Originally Posted by Number 3

You are simply adding the cost of parts you go out and buy. Parts that probably don't meet GMs specifications by the way. GM really is far more rigorous than you might be thinking. Then you are talking about either a) building in the low volume plant in Wixom (Cha-CHINNGGGGGG) or another engine that needs to have full federal certification etc. (Cha-CHINGGGGGG).

Look I appreciate why some would prefer forged pistons etc..(as do the enthusiasts within GM). It doesn't require a thread to get GM to think "hey there might be a few people out there that want forged internals". But end of the day, how much would you pay GM for that. Not how much could you do it in your garage, but how much effort and validation GM has to do as an OEM would you be willing to profitably compensate GM? Then you simply ask, as you would if you were a business owner, "If I jack the price of the car, how many fewer will I sell and now what does my business case look like". GM is a business after all and I can assure you those costs and impacts to sales are well known.

GM is putting an engine in the ZL1 that is really quite sophisticated, and it will be reliable, durable and make great power, be emisions compliant in 50 states. And if you really have any doubts, go drive a CTS-V. It makes the CTS-V the fastest sedan in the world. Why isn't that enough for the ZL1?

And OP, I appreciate your wording in your post. A year ago, others were posting "GM is a FAIL because everyone will want to mod their car and GM should know this and give us the LS9 instead". The LL1 is a well thought out car by GM. No it won't make everyone happy, no product does. But it will be awesome and it will satisfy most buyers of the ZL1.

Regardless of what GM would have to do; I"m sure spreading their costs across all the car sales for the Camaro over the next few years they could do whatever necessary to offer the forged internals on the higher end models at minimal costs compared to doigng it yourself for $4k. and still make a profit. Numerous folks like myself would pay the extra $ to have it so why not do it?
Also, the ZL1 is not a GM product the Camaro is a GM product the ZL1 is a modded Camaro done by s 3rd. party. So, if GM can partner with a 3rd. party, and sell you the car and everone walks away making a profit why not do it themselves?

[81z28355]

I really don't get you guys. GM has an engine that will last well over 100,000 miles with over 550HP. More power than most of you should even have to be honest. If the LSA responds to mods the same as the LS3 one could assume the headers, full exhaust, CAI, cam and tune could put this car up in the 550rwhp range. Add a pulley and I am sure you could hit 600RWHP and still have an engine that will last close to 100k if you only add a couple pounds of boost.

I am willing to bet the car wont hook up with 600RWHP as most cars don't In the real world not the world of dyno queens, 600rwhp is more than enough. If you want a fast drag car why waste your money on this car? Pick up a Gen 3 or Gen 4 car for a few grand and stick 800hp in it and run 9's with a 3300lb car. GM made a car that handles well and should fly down the 1320, save your money, pick one up add a few bolt-on mods to make it your own and have a great car that will put smiles on your face for years to come.

If you have 50k for this car then whats another 5k to pull the engine and build it into a 1000hp dragster if that's what you want.

And FYI a GT500 has powder metal rods that will exit the block much over 700 rwhp. Yes some guys can get 800 rwhp out of the GT500 but the more you read on the forums the more bent rods and detonated pistons you will find.

Bottom line is you have to pay to play.

[Russell James]

Originally Posted by calbert1999

I hear ya'. I'll be doing mine next year, and yes I was told approx $4k. to stroke the engine with forged internals.



Regardless of what GM would have to do; I"m sure spreading their costs across all the car sales for the Camaro over the next few years they could do whatever necessary to offer the forged internals on the higher end models at minimal costs compared to doigng it yourself for $4k. and still make a profit. Numerous folks like myself would pay the extra $ to have it so why not do it?
Also, the ZL1 is not a GM product the Camaro is a GM product the ZL1 is a modded Camaro done by s 3rd. party. So, if GM can partner with a 3rd. party, and sell you the car and everone walks away making a profit why not do it themselves?

What are you talking about? A ZL1 partnered with a 3rd party? No such thing. If your talking about the SLP car - there is no partnership there. That is 100% aftermarket modded.

[91Z28350]

No flames from me. I still think the opportunity for GM to make, and offer a forged internal (pistons, con rods, etc. ) exists. Do they owe it to us, not at all. The LSA is a very good motor and to be honest overkill for the street.
Having said that, if it made economic sense for GM to offer such a package for the LSA, I would want it. And that was the purpose of the poll, as I created it.

I have no idea what the cost would be to GM; nor do I know if it would need to be re-certified, if any emissions issues would crop up, and if so what the total cost to GM, (divided by projected sales to come up with a per unit cost?), and ultimately us (the buyers) would be. Maybe GM knows, or maybe they don't.