[olrocker]

I still maintain the advertising or lack thereof, is partly, directly due to the sales slide of the Camaro.

What happened starting around the mid-90s, as sales started to skid toward first production halt in 2002? Well, for one thing I know, Chevy abandoned the "Heartbeat of America" campaign. That ended by around 1994-95. People can ignore it all they want but I'm telling you, it was one of THE greatest ad campaigns for a car division EVER. That combined with Bob Seager's "Like A Rock" for the Silverados, and Chevy was THE advertising powerhouse in the automobile business.

[JoeCamaro444]

Originally Posted by olrocker

I still maintain the advertising or lack thereof, is partly, directly due to the sales slide of the Camaro.

What happened starting around the mid-90s, as sales started to skid toward first production halt in 2002? Well, for one thing I know, Chevy abandoned the "Heartbeat of America" campaign. That ended by around 1994-95. People can ignore it all they want but I'm telling you, it was one of THE greatest ad campaigns for a car division EVER. That combined with Bob Seager's "Like A Rock" for the Silverados, and Chevy was THE advertising powerhouse in the automobile business.

I fully agree. 🇺🇸

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by Number 3

The Camaro, as we’ve discussed, was designed for a very specific, nearly niche customer. It was never designed for wide spread appeal. It was designed for Camaro buyers. That’s who they asked for the Gen6. And we got a great Camaro, but not one that a TV commercial would help. No rear seat, tiny trunk and poor visibility appeals to a lot of Camaro buyers, which is why everyone jumps on you when you bring up those flaws. It just highlights who the car was designed for and they love it. But if you are in the market for an expressive sporty coupe, you are not nearly as likely to accept this flaws. It’s why the challenger sold so well up to end on an archaic chassis. It is in no way a better performance car than a Camaro. But it’s a better every day car for more people than the Camaro.

So advertising would have done nothing to move the needle and GM knew that.

Number 3, are you trying to tell us that marketing and advertising only works for über products that beat their competition in every single way?

You know full well how untrue that is, people buy absolute pieces of garbage every day simply because of the perception expertly woven for them and echoed by the "influencers" these people listen to, often subconsciously. The Camaro has a ton of advantages, so it isn't even a difficult product to highlight the qualities of.

It's quite a surprise how you of all people in the forums can so severely underestimate the power of the lumascape.

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Number 3, are you trying to tell us that marketing and advertising only works for über products that beat their competition in every single way?

You know full well how untrue that is, people buy absolute pieces of garbage every day simply because of the perception expertly woven for them and echoed by the "influencers" these people listen to, often subconsciously. The Camaro has a ton of advantages, so it isn't even a difficult product to highlight the qualities of.

It's quite a surprise how you of all people in the forums can so severely underestimate the power of the lumascape.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Number 3, are you trying to tell us that marketing and advertising only works for über products that beat their competition in every single way?

You know full well how untrue that is, people buy absolute pieces of garbage every day simply because of the perception expertly woven for them and echoed by the "influencers" these people listen to, often subconsciously. The Camaro has a ton of advantages, so it isn't even a difficult product to highlight the qualities of.

It's quite a surprise how you of all people in the forums can so severely underestimate the power of the lumascape.

Well been shouted down several times but I’ll try again. My wife was Marketing Manager for Corvette for several years which entailed working closely with the Camaro team. Fbodfather remains a friend of ours. I can assure you that the customer clinic for the Gen6 was not going to Mustang owners and asking them “what would it take for you to buy a Camaro”. They went to a group of Camaro owners known to GM as “the faithful” as I recall and asked them what they wanted for the next Camaro. MOHHHHRRRRRRRRRRR! Was the reply and that’s what they got. I’ve suggested for years it is now the equivalent of advertising the VERY BEST left handed baseball glove to right handers. GM knows what they did and knows advertising is a moot point. Yes they might sell a few more cars but it wouldn’t offset the cost of commercials and air time. Sorry but that’s just the deal. I know it offends people who love the car and are incapable of grasping how their baby isn’t seen as awesome by everyone. But your baby wasn’t designed to be awesome to everyone, just Camaro buyers…….and if you bought one you are one and it was designed to be perfect for exactly you.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Well been shouted down several times but I’ll try again. My wife was Marketing Manager for Corvette for several years which entailed working closely with the Camaro team. Fbodfather remains a friend of ours. I can assure you that the customer clinic for the Gen6 was not going to Mustang owners and asking them “what would it take for you to buy a Camaro”. They went to a group of Camaro owners known to GM as “the faithful” as I recall and asked them what they wanted for the next Camaro. MOHHHHRRRRRRRRRRR! Was the reply and that’s what they got. I’ve suggested for years it is now the equivalent of advertising the VERY BEST left handed baseball glove to right handers. GM knows what they did and knows advertising is a moot point. Yes they might sell a few more cars but it wouldn’t offset the cost of commercials and air time. Sorry but that’s just the deal. I know it offends people who love the car and are incapable of grasping how their baby isn’t seen as awesome by everyone. But your baby wasn’t designed to be awesome to everyone, just Camaro buyers…….and if you bought one you are one and it was designed to be perfect for exactly you.

Let's assume for a second you are 100% spot on with this analysis. When did this MOOOHHHHRRRRRRR moment happen, in 2013, maybe 2014? That was 9 or 10 years ago. What about making changes in the meantime based on the lower than expected initial sales figures? Like, for example, what Ford did with their Mustang, several times, even though they have advantages for daily use from the get-go?

I don't think anybody suggesting more advertising would also advocate for standing still and just trying to sell the same product with more and more aggressive marketing/ad campaigns and nothing else. The lack of advertising certainly hurt this car, and I know you hate sounding like a broken record, but you keep referencing this one data point from a decade ago as if that was an immutable conclusion that shall never be changed or challenged.


One more small thing: you are still "in the system", ie your mindset is heavily influenced by your in-depth involvement with GM, but we "critics" exist outside this corporation. Never hurts to ditch some basic assumptions, sometimes even data, to avoid getting stuck in an echo chamber and a specific corporate culture. I fell into the same trap over and over again, so please don't take it as preaching, this applies to all of us.

[Alan47717]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Well been shouted down several times but I’ll try again. My wife was Marketing Manager for Corvette for several years which entailed working closely with the Camaro team. Fbodfather remains a friend of ours. I can assure you that the customer clinic for the Gen6 was not going to Mustang owners and asking them “what would it take for you to buy a Camaro”. They went to a group of Camaro owners known to GM as “the faithful” as I recall and asked them what they wanted for the next Camaro. MOHHHHRRRRRRRRRRR! Was the reply and that’s what they got. I’ve suggested for years it is now the equivalent of advertising the VERY BEST left handed baseball glove to right handers. GM knows what they did and knows advertising is a moot point. Yes they might sell a few more cars but it wouldn’t offset the cost of commercials and air time. Sorry but that’s just the deal. I know it offends people who love the car and are incapable of grasping how their baby isn’t seen as awesome by everyone. But your baby wasn’t designed to be awesome to everyone, just Camaro buyers…….and if you bought one you are one and it was designed to be perfect for exactly you.

The "everyone who wants one has got one" excuse for not marketing a vehicle or engine is a smokescreen for management lack of interest in said product. Marketing people don't tell management they can't sell more cars, management tells marketing when it's time to stop. The 6th gen doesn't have a champion anymore, hasn't for years and is being allowed to die a slow death due to neglect. It's the GM way. Blaming it on the car's design doesn't fly.

For the second time in a generation this company has decided it can't be bothered to compete with Ford in this market segment. Tragic.

[olrocker]

Originally Posted by Alan47717

The "everyone who wants one has got one" excuse for not marketing a vehicle or engine is a smokescreen for management lack of interest in said product. Marketing people don't tell management they can't sell more cars, management tells marketing when it's time to stop. The 6th gen doesn't have a champion anymore, hasn't for years and is being allowed to die a slow death due to neglect. It's the GM way. Blaming it on the car's design doesn't fly.

For the second time in a generation this company has decided it can't be bothered to compete with Ford in this market segment. Tragic.

The thing that really sucks about the whole thing is that, for the vast majority of the model years both cars were in production, the Camaro was the SUPERIOR car. From engineering, handling, drivetrain, comfort, and reliability. I have a soft spot for the ‘68 390 GT 4 speed fastback in hunter green with black interior and 5 spoke magnesium wheels, but that’s due to a certain movie about a San Francisco cop who was played by an actor who was a pretty good race car driver in real life.

You put any Camaro against the same model year Mustang head to head with equivalent trim, options, engines, and transmissions, and the Camaro is the better car.

GM’s engineers got it. The upper level management never did. If they did, they’d have put Zora Arkus Duntov and John DeLorean together to develop anything that was in their minds, then build it for huge profit because rich people would pay for a car the two of them combined would have come up with. Then you advertise the hell out of it to promote it while linking said Supercar to being from the same company that brings you the Chevelle and Impala.

The Ford GT 40 would have been child’s play.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Let's assume for a second you are 100% spot on with this analysis. When did this MOOOHHHHRRRRRRR moment happen, in 2013, maybe 2014? That was 9 or 10 years ago. What about making changes in the meantime based on the lower than expected initial sales figures? Like, for example, what Ford did with their Mustang, several times, even though they have advantages for daily use from the get-go?

I don't think anybody suggesting more advertising would also advocate for standing still and just trying to sell the same product with more and more aggressive marketing/ad campaigns and nothing else. The lack of advertising certainly hurt this car, and I know you hate sounding like a broken record, but you keep referencing this one data point from a decade ago as if that was an immutable conclusion that shall never be changed or challenged.


One more small thing: you are still "in the system", ie your mindset is heavily influenced by your in-depth involvement with GM, but we "critics" exist outside this corporation. Never hurts to ditch some basic assumptions, sometimes even data, to avoid getting stuck in an echo chamber and a specific corporate culture. I fell into the same trap over and over again, so please don't take it as preaching, this applies to all of us.

To be clear, and I’ve stated it clearly, I am no longer with GM and have not been there for 12 years.

You are correct, much of the Gen6 was determined around 2011 or 12. I actually got to see the first early clays for the Gen6 and I swear to god it was a 7/8 scale Gen5. And this was before I left in 2011.

Those decisions, however, were architectural. So like your house, you can change cabinets or counter tops but changing the layout is very expensive. So changing the car to have more trunk space, better rear seat room and better visibility was hugely expensive and something TV ads would never fix.

Now at the point GM realized it had failed, there was no business case to redo the car, e.g. a CT5 coupe rather than a CT5 front for the V8 and a CT4 rear for size and weight. So we were left to watch our beloved Camaro waste away to the end.

Now what comes next is actually exciting for me. I just hope the Camaro name stays on a coupe.

[90503]

I take issue with the argument that the Camaro was a design "failure". We have all suffered through this so-called argument as if it's an accepted fact that must be agreed to simply because it's been non-stop repeated by a few, or maybe just one, actually...lol...Someone with a grudge against Ed Welburn is not the last word on how the Camaro should have been built.

Take it or leave it. The Camaro stood on it's own. It never had to be a car for everyone. It outsold Challenger for many years even with the so-called design flaws. The Challenger advertised the crap out of their car, and sales took off for them.

GM ads are the most cringe-worthy ever made (Remember "Real People" ads?...lol) Thank goodness the Camaro was not showcased in those. Sales might have gotten worse...lol...

IMO Camaro tried to distance itself from the retro-vibe (which made it a success and sales leader) whereas Dodge and Mustang did not.

All moot now. GM will kill anything they make with no logical reasoning. And they will advertise needlessly on losers like Cadillac. Advertising is a waste of money these days. Others do it for them for free.

[gpskinzhut]

God those stupid JD Power ads were so vanilla it made vanilla look flamboyant.

Failure from a sales/market share perspective I suppose, but not a fail in the performance category which is where we generally live.

I think marketing may have brought more attention in the front door but the compromises for the buyer are still there, which are primarily visibility and practicality so I get what 3 is saying in that respect.

As far as retro... I'm tired of it. I was tired of it at the end of the 5. I was bummed when the 6 looked very much like the 5. I was hoping for something new while still having the traceable heritage in the lines. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the 6 and I've owned 2 so far. But still would have liked something new & different. Curious to see what comes down the tube.

[Number 3]

Ok, one last try.

First, GM has so much data on this that they know advertising won’t help. The “Internet collective intelligence” knows better than alllllll of that data. I LOVE MY CAMARO, ITS THE BEST CAR EVER” is the Camaro buyer GM designed the car for. It’s just not the car for someone who wanted an “expressive coupe”.

Many are probably too young for this but when the Camaro died in the very early 2000s, V8 sales were on par with Mustang. What was way off was non V8 sales. My guess is today it’s about the same. To be profitable, you need volume and having not seen the real numbers, I’ll bet GM planned on 80,000 units, similar to the Gen5. That never happened.


So from a GM perspective the Gen6 was not only a failure it was a catastrophe that killed any chance of a an ICE Gen7.

If you believe the same Chevy exec that approved ads for the Silverado mindlessly rejected commercials for the Camaro knowing his or her bonus depended on it, well that’s just the internet arm chair quarterbacks that are CERTAIN they are smarter than GM. I get that but it’s sadly just not true. Stallantis advertised Charger and Challenger simply because it’s all they had. An outdated minivan, Journey SUV and a very old Durango that’s only claim to fame is also powertrain. None of which sold. Dodge by all business measures is dead but continues somehow.

Believe if you want, but GM has data that would suggest advertising the Camaro is fruitless. The “murican muscle” crowd knows or has one. But GM knows who they designed the car for AND they know that the people they DID NOT design the car for aren’t open to a “expressive sporty coupe” that is hard to see out of (sorry guys glad you love yours, it’s just true) limited trunk space (sorry but a standard length driver won’t fit in the trunk, gen5 was easy for two sets of clubs) and rear seat room (at launch GM admitted they gave up on his as Consumer Reports made no differentiation for coupes).

For years now so many have tried to say they are smarter than GM and even smarter than my wife who undergrad and masters is in marketing AND she worked at Chevy on Corvette with the Camaro team, and the internet allllll knows better. Sorry, I’m an executive in the industry and I have experience and knowledge that would suggest different.

So to state the Camaro demise is due to GM advertising is just silly. Listen to this, “I know more than GM and alll of the customer data they have and years of experience they have and because Dodge did cool ads with Vin Diesel they must be wrong and I’m right”

Sorry, I just know better. But you armchair ad execs keep blasting away.

[Johnfin]

Am i missing something on this thread. It seems like
People believe its GM's fault or their design team
For the demise of the camaro. Someone on this
Site already showed the government mandate
To terminate all muscle cars by 2024. I read it
Straight from uncle sam. Not a coincidence
They all ceased together. Imports too.
Like digital tv, it just happened and there waa
Nothing we could do about it.

[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by gpskinzhut

As far as retro... I'm tired of it. I was tired of it at the end of the 5. I was bummed when the 6 looked very much like the 5. I was hoping for something new while still having the traceable heritage in the lines. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the 6 and I've owned 2 so far. But still would have liked something new & different. Curious to see what comes down the tube.

Totally agreed. At first I was mad when Ford went away from the retro look in 2015 but I get it now. The Mustang needed to evolve. GM followed suit in 2019 with the new front end that they then improved in 2020. At first I was upset but now I like the new front end so much I ordered a 2023 2ss 1le! I prefer the new front end even over the zl1 front end now. It just looks more modern and aggressive with a trace of retro in the taillights.